Purgatory Or The Judgment Seat of Christ?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ray Berrian, Jun 7, 2003.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    For many Roman Catholics there is the mystery and fear of Purgatory because not even the priest knows how long each communicant will remain there. What if you have no one to allegedly, 'pray you out of this place of limbo.' I think the Catholic Church in her catechism uses some of the same verses that we do to explain this, exclusively, Catholic condition of the soul.

    Try to realize that for the most part the Bible was written to all of us to give us assurance in this life and a sure hope of everlasting life with Christ.

    Romans chapter eight starts out with the verse that anyone who loves Jesus will not come into condemnation and closes out this chapter by saying that absolutely nothing can separate us from the love and care coming from Jesus Christ.

    The great Apostle Paul of our faith tells his congregations that when he dies he and they will immediately be in the Presence of God in Heaven. [II Corinthians 5:8c; Philippians 1:23] No Christian evaluation like purgatory takes place until Jesus returns for His universal church. This is referenced in I Corinthians 15:51-58 & I Thessalonians 4:13-18] Anyone who loves, has experienced, trusts completely in Jesus for everlasting life is sure to go straight to where the Lord is, which, of course, is Heaven.

    Directly after Jesus come for the universal church and human bodies are resurrected from the dead, the Bible tells us with great clarity that Christians will stand before "The Judgment Seat of Christ." [Romans 14:10; II Corinthians 5:10] These two references are the only two relative to this required judgment coming from the Lord. Let me assure you that this judgment is not to find out if we made it or not, because every Christian will have made the grade. This judgment is to evaluate our performance as to what we have done for Christ and His church. For example, did we witness to Jesus power to forgive sins, were we faithful to the service/or mass of the church, did we honor the men of God in the pulpits, were we a good example of how and what the Christian life is all about. {You get the idea}

    There is no prolonged 'side-bar' at purgatory, but what we all will experience after He comes for His church, is clearly defined in God's Word. The explanation is found in I Corinthians 3:11-15. I did not understand this truth of His evaluative, judgment until my first year of seminary at Reformed Episcopal Seminary.

    We know that ' . . . our God is a consuming fire.' [Hebrews 12:29] If you are a Christian you probably understood when the Lord has stepped into your life with chastisement. [Hebrews 12:513] It was His Providential move in your life that burned away the dross of you foolish ways. God knew it; and you and I know it when we experience His correction and redirection.

    The Judgment Seat of Christ will be something like what is taught in the Roman Catholic Church.

    Each of us in all of our churches are personally building worthy or unworthy things into our lives. For example: reading the Bible everyday and praying to God will be considered like building 'gold' into our lives. Supporting the clergy in whatever way will be like building 'silver' into our future evaluation for the Lord to examine. [I Corinthians 3:12; John 5:22b]

    Our careless sins will be considered like 'wood, hay, and stubble.' When we stand before the Lord our work and labor of love for the Lord will be judged, probably, quickly as we stand in the Presence of this brilliant and fiery Person called Jesus Christ.

    The apostle tell us that our 'wood, hay, and stubble will be burned away, which will also probably be our works done for self-glory rather than for His greater praise. Our good things done will be refined by His fire; these 'good works' will be rewarded by Him. {His rewards is another subject} Anyway, those works which remain and were not burned up will be the basis of our reward and standing/status in Heaven.

    Some of our friends who lived careless Christian lives will have nothing to evaluate but 'wood, hay and stubble; but even to these believers they will be saved and enter Heaven, though unworthy. They ' . . . will be saved but only through His fiery judgment.' In other words, some believers will be saved 'by the skin of their teeth'--meaning barely. [I Corinthians 3:15]

    This is the similarity between Purgatory and the Judgment Seat of Christ. If you know this spiritual truth or just saw this light, consider yourself fortunate to understand this truth.

    Ray Berrian, Th.D.
     
  2. Kathryn

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    Catholic Teaching on Purgatory:

    1031. "The Church gives the name PURGATORY to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on PURGATORY especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[Cf. 1 Cor 3:15 ; 1 Pet 1:7 .] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31 .] "
    To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/art12.html#FINAL

    1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called PURGATORY. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"
    To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/healing.html#INDULGENCES

    1475. "In the communion of saints, 'a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in PURGATORY and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.'[Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.] In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin."
    To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/healing.html#INDULGENCES
     
  3. BobRyan

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    The entire system of "indulgences" is a system dedicated to the "fear of purgatory" and the real desire to "get out of there as fast as possible".

    Plenary indulgences can only be "earned" for one that is dead - you can not get one "for yourself".

    A faithful Catholic - who was concerned for a friend or loved one WOULD earn multiple plenary indulgences for that same loved one - to get them out of Purgatory.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. KenH

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    I have read where someone said, "Our rewards in the Kingdom will not be on what we DO for Christ, but what we LOSE for Christ."

    I think that makes a lot of sense.

    Mark 10:29-30 (ESV)
    [29]Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, [30] who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
     
  5. GraceSaves

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    Ray,

    Your entire post is bogus, because purgatory is a state that occurs after we are judged, not before.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  6. GraceSaves

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    Thanks for the entertainment, Bob.

    I'm not afraid of purgatory; I view it as a grace of God.

    Thanks anyway for the slander, though.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Wonderful - then the entire system of indulgences will end as soon as all Catholics view Purgatory as the great and wonderful place that you do.

    In the mean time...The RCC teaches us that..

    But if we could "pretend" that all these sources in Catholicism "do not exist" when around non-Catholic - THEN we could charge non-Catholics with slander for bringing up the points these documents make.

    Wouldn't that be nice?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Ken H,

    You have raised a good point. It is not only what we do for our Lord but also what we have given up for His church and ministry that will be evaluated.

    Do you remember several years ago when several nuns were ambushed by a rebel army in Central America. I wrote the families involved to express my sense of sorrow for what I know they were experiencing.

    At the Judgment Seat of Christ these sisters, in my understanding, will be rewarded with ' . . . a crown of life' is documented in Revelation 2:10 e,f. 'Fear none of those things which thou shall suffer; behold, the Devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life.'

    Ultimately, if we have any crowns received, we will cast them before our worthy Lord Jesus. [Revelation 4:10-11]

    With Heaven assured [John 10:27-30] we have the greatest of all futures ahead of us as Christians. [John 3:16]
     
  9. WPutnam

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    I was going to respond here.

    but I see some good Catholics doing a fine job!

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    "Gloria in excelsis Deo"

    (Intoned by the celebrant of the Mass.)

    (The choir response.)

    Et in terra pax homininus
    bone voluntatis
    Laudamus te
    Benedicimus te
    Adoramus te
    Glorificamus te,
    Gratias agimus tibi propter
    magnum gloriam tuum.
    Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
    Deus Pater omnipotens
    Domine Fili unigenite
    Jesu Christe Domine Deus
    Agnus Dei Filius Patris
    Qui tollis peccata mundi
    miserere nobis.
    Qui tollis peccata mundi,
    suscipe deprecationem nostram.
    Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris,
    miserere nobis.
    Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
    Tu solus Dominus
    Tu solus Altissimus
    Jesu Christe.
    Cum Sancto Spiritu
    in gloria Dei Patris
    Amen.


    - The Ambrosian Gloria -


    http://www.solesmes.com/sons/gloria.ram

    (Real monks chanting....)


    Gregorian Chant - God's music! [​IMG]
     
  10. GraceSaves

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    Bob,

    You post things out of proper context, as usual.

    Does one suffer in purgatory? Sure. Giving up our sinful ways is painful, because sometimes we are so entrenched in sinfullness, it takes a lot to give it up and not fall back into it. Does that make the suffering "bad"? No. I suffer often for my faith in Christ to those who oppose it. I suffer insult. Many suffer personal injury, even death. Does that make the suffering bad? No. That doesn't make it wrong or fearful either. Because we suffer in purgatory does not make it wrong or bad or fearful.

    Further, of course I will want to be out of the state of purgatory, because that means I will be in the full and complete presence of my Lord and Savior for ever and ever! Purgatory, by its nature, is temporary; it is God cleansing us of our sinful nature; the sooner we can be with him, the better. So, yes, indulgences on behalf of the faithful departed are good, because we want to see them with our God sooner!

    You can try to make it depressing, and you might succeed for those who already reject purgatory or don't know what it is. But you will not change the true view of it by posting uncontextual examples.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  11. CatholicConvert

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    Brother Ray --

    Here is a pretty good article by an Orthodox priest:

    THE RIVER OF FIRE

    I find the concept taught here both intriguing, and totally in line with the Biblical statement that God is love.

    Hope you will take time to read it.

    Cordially in Christ,


    Brother Ed
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    Grant,

    You suggested this. 'Your entire post is bogus, because purgatory is a state that occurs after we are judged, not before.'

    Are you saying that the alleged Purgatory is a state or place of confinement after the Christian is judged by the Lord? If the blood of Jesus Christ was not enough to purge our sins at the Cross and in our wayward lives, how is it that humans are used through their prayers to develop the merit of those who apparently were not ready to meet Him.

    Scripture suggests that some Christians will not be ready at the time of their deaths or at His coming for the church in the air. Note: I John 2:28. Some will be ashamed but will never be tossed into limbo especially when Christ paid the penalty for all of the sins of believers. [I John 2:2a & 12] This state of limbo/Purgatory is in contradistinction to what God told the Apostle Paul to say in II Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23. Was not Paul saying that the destiny of all Christians, including himself, was the immediate Presence of Christ in Heaven before His throne?

    My regards,

    Ray
     
  13. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    The only thing in Scripture that says anything about judgment, is being cast into the lake of fire for those lacking faith in Jesus, and being given over to Jesus for those who do have faith in Jesus. There exists NO intermediary rest stops between judgment and punishment. Once an unbeliever is judged, the bailiff says "Go to Hell, Go directly to Hell, do not pass "GO".
     
  14. GraceSaves

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    The only thing in Scripture that says anything about judgment, is being cast into the lake of fire for those lacking faith in Jesus, and being given over to Jesus for those who do have faith in Jesus. There exists NO intermediary rest stops between judgment and punishment. Once an unbeliever is judged, the bailiff says "Go to Hell, Go directly to Hell, do not pass "GO". </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

    Since purgatory has nothing to do with hell or being on the way to hell, I cannot find the relevance of your post.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  15. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    It is the judgment that you spoke of that triggered my response. The judgment of man immediately precedes his reward or punishment which ever is appropriate. There is no purgatory after judgment.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    There are two major judgments that our Lord will administer for human beings. The judgment of the wicked/sinners is called, "The Great White Throne Judgment." Only lost sinners will be called before His judicial proceedings. [Revelation 20:11-15] By the language of the Revelator you see, feel, and know that Jesus is speaking of non-Christians.

    The judgment of God's people will take place at the what the Apostle Paul defines as the Judgment Seat of Christ. [Romans 14:10; II Corinthians 5:6-11] There is a vastly different tone to Paul's words in these passages. In the Roman passage Paul tells the church not to judge other believers; why? Because each one of them {and we Christians} will have to appear before Christ for evaluation. God was saying don't put a stumbling block in your brothers/sisters way, because we will all be required to stand before Him. In conclusion, there is not one final judgment day as most Christians have been taught early on in their lives. It's time for some to mature in their understanding.

    In I John 2:2a God speaking through the Apostle John tell us that Christ has expiated and paid for all of the sins of Christians. Jesus will not place a saved soul in Purgatory or Hell because they have already been paid for on the Cross and via His eternal covenant with us.

    Study I John 5:18 in the Greek and you will see that once we are born again, Christ will not return us to the diabolical plans that Satan has in mind for us. After your study you will see that this verse basicly means, that the One/Jesus who has begotten us to new life in Christ will keep us safe, spiritually speaking, so that the wicked one/the Devil cannot get a hold on our souls. Also, view [Romans 10:9 & John 10:27-30]

    Incidentally, the New Century Version says, 'Yes, I am sure that neither death, nor life, no angels, nor ruling spirits, nothing now, nothing in the future, no powers, nothing above us, nothing below us, no anything else in the whole world {including the Christians sins} will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.' Check your Douay Version; you will find a similar rendering.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    So you're saying that the torment and suffering in purgatory is not going to bother you in the least?

    Are you saying that God's word mentions purgatory?

    Are you saying that anyone but a Catholic has any chance of believing in Purgatory?

    A "few" Catholics on this board have claimed that they find Catholic doctrine supported "sola scriptura" - how about Purgatory?

    How can anyone be "rejecting" what was never in God's Word to start with?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Many non-Catholics believe "The blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin".

    However the Catholic model is that "only really really bad people go to hell". No matter what their religion.

    For the rest - there is purgatory and for the very few - almost perfect people there is the express ticket directly to heaven.

    So those that go to Purgatory will one day all be in heaven - but first "they must suffer" for "Some sins" from which "the blood of Christ did NOT cleanse".

    However - the church is in a position to "take care of the sin that the blood of Christ misses" by "granting" you a plenary indulgence for your loved one.

    So we have "sinful human priest - mediating like - Christ", and "Mary, Sinless like Christ" "Ruling in heaven - as the Queen Mother" and "church having dominion and authority over its own list of sins able to pardon - like Christ". It is truly a "partnership" in "being the Savior".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. GraceSaves

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    The suffering in purgatory is equal and no greater than the joy of coming closer to the presense of our Lord. No, I do not fear it in the least.

    Implicitly, most definitely. And you know what verses I will give you, so why do you ask? To make a show of me? You already know, and we do have Scriptural support.

    Are you saying that anyone but a Christian has any chance of believing in Jesus Christ? No. The knowledge is there; it is up to the individual to return to the One, True Church from which all others have derivated from.

    I haven't seen this, nor do I believe it. Catholic teachings are present in both Scripture and Tradition, both of which are the Word of God (one being written, one being oral).

    Simple: It was there to start with, and during the Protestant Reformation, and possibly in other schisms before that, it was rejected by people who wished to separate themselves from the Holy Catholic Church.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  20. BobRyan

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    The Faith Explained

    "It is evident that no one can know 'How Long' Purgatory LASTS for any individual
    soul. I have put "How Long" in quotes because, while there is DURATION beyond
    the grave, there is no "time" as WE know it;..However whether we measure purgatory by DURATION or by INTENSITY the fact remains that a soul in Purgatory can NOT lessen its OWN sufferings. But WE the LIVING can "help that soul" by the mercy of God and the frequency of our remembrance." pg 181


    Grant - I am glad you find this something to look forward to - while at other times wanting to get out of it as soon as possible.

    I have to assume that yout "would want" friends and relatives to be "earning plenary indulgences" for you while you are stuck in there with the hope that one of them "might" actually go through and get you out EARLY - correct?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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