Purpose Driven Mess

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by danthebaptist, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. danthebaptist

    danthebaptist
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    I was just surprised by a dear old pastor friend who called on the phone. I hadn't spoken to him in years.

    We got to talking about the turn that our churches have been taking and the subject of Mr. Warren came up.

    I told him how many of the conference and convention churches here have been taken up with him and his teachings and he said it has even infiltrated the BBF.

    Now it's been over 25 years since I attended BBC and I've been far removed from those churches these many years. Does anyone out there know if this is true?

    Thanks,
    DantheBaptist
     
  2. SaggyWoman

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    What is BBF/BBC?
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    BaptistBibleFellowship or BaptistBibleChurch, I guess, from the way I look at his posts.
     
  4. skypair

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    dan,

    "Purpose Driven..." is years old now but it seemed every church wanted to promote the program/book which was about growing the church. The main thrust seemed to be that we should make the church more "seeker friendly." That is, lower the "dress codes;" have contemporary music; no "hell, fire, and brimstone" preaching anymore, everybody go on a mission trip to a foreign country (have you noticed the number of mission trips offered to laymen and teens in every church?), etc.

    Of course, this has "invited" the world into the church in every respect that the world is bad for the church.

    skypair
     
  5. danthebaptist

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    BBF = Baptist Bible Fellowship

    BBC = Baptist Bible College (Springfield, Mo.)

    Hope this clarifies for those unfamiliar with the Baptist ABC's and XYZ's
     
  6. StefanM

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    That's not a completely accurate representation of the thesis of the book. Warren specifically warns not to adopt the particular methdology of Saddleback. He says that we should apply the basic principles according to our contexts.

    At its core, his paradigm calls for the church to be balanced in the "five purposes"--worship, ministry, evangelism, fellowship, and discipleship. Whether or not you agree with Saddleback's methods, I think we can all agree that we should ensure that our churches function according to these purposes.
     
  7. ShotGunWillie

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    Adoption of his program into many churches has caused a increase in attendance, different programs growing, new programs developing, and when the church has grown to unbelievable sizes, it suffers a split because of the doctrine Warren pushes and these large churches with their huge gawdy buildings crash and burn and become warehouses. The largest Baptist church in OKC had this happen so have several other well known mega-churches, from all around the US.
     
  8. Amy.G

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    Am I the only one who believes that church is for the discipling of the believer and not a place to win the lost? I believe we are to do our soul winning outside of the church doors and that if we are not properly discipled inside the church, we will not be able to affect the lost in any way.
    I believe this is where the church fails in our modern day.

    Anyone agree?
     
  9. abcgrad94

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    Yes, wholeheartedly. Christ said to "Go," not sit on our backside and wait for them to come on our turf and conform to our "standards". I do believe the plan of salvation should be presented at church, but if all the sermons are based on evangelism, how on earth can we be expected to grow?
     
  10. danthebaptist

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    Sister,

    You are so right. The church is where we are disciplined, loved, and encouraged. Part of that encouragement is to go into the highways and byways to win the lost to Christ.

    However, you know as well as I do, that often lost people darken our doorsteps. and the plan of salvation needs to be given. The lost need to hear it and those who are saved never tire of hearing it.

    But I agree with you. But now if you really want to open a can of worms, talk about church discipline in a day and age when all you hear is: "Now, you don't want to be judgmental" !

    It's never easy, but necessary, like removing a gangrenous limb to save the rest of the body.
     
  11. annsni

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    We've had classes on the PDL (and my husband has taught them) and they're not about changing what we're doing in church, but what we're doing in our life.

    I totally agree that church is for the saved and that it should not be "dumbed down" to be able to fit the unbelievers but we also do need to be aware of unbelievers who might attend and have a way to minister and teach them - hopefully bringing them to the Lord. In our church, that's where small groups would come in. :)
     
  12. Amy.G

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    Abc, Dan, I agree with you both. I think to center sermons and teaching around evangelizing in the hope that one lost person that might be in the church that day is going to far in one direction. To never present the gospel in church is going too far in the other direction.

    However, I believe with my whole heart that when the word of God is taught, the sinner will come. Not because he has been "evangelized", but because the word will convict him and he will be drawn by the Spirit. So, our first priority is to teach the word and make disciples who can go out into the world and simply repeat what they've learned from God's word and then God will bring them in. Sadly, I have noticed that many Christians are biblically illiterate. When that is the case, their witnessing becomes nothing more than their personal feelings and not the word of God.

    Does that make sense? :)
     
  13. preachinjesus

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    Wow, another thread on this.

    Um, I like Purpose Driven stuff. The church where I get to serve has taken some of the concepts and integrated them into our methodology. I regularly recommend Purpose Driven Life to people who are struggling or what a good resource. I love what Pastor Warren is doing for the Kingdom.

    I think the Purpose Driven methdology is perfectly in line with a biblical model so long we don't think it is the Gospel and will mold it to our context. That is exactly what they ask us to do.

    Too many churches are using this smokescreen of "I don't think this is biblical" or "this isn't how the church is supposed to look" or some kind of methodological strawman to dismiss this when it is exactly what they need...purpose. How many churches are lost in a mire of visionless leadership and purposeless mission? Too many.

    I guess when it comes to the end of the day we will all be asked to give an account of what we have done with what Christ gave us. Pastor Warren has done much and beyond much for the Kingdom of God. I have no qualms with the man and would hasten anyone who attempts to deride him to examine your motives and then line up your Kingdom impact with his. :)

    There is just nothing unScriptural about the 5 points of purpose which Pastor Warren presents.
     
  14. StefanM

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    But the church (i.e. the body of Christ) does the evangelism.
     
  15. Amy.G

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    I agree with that and I don't think I said otherwise. But evangelism should be done when we leave the church, no?
    Our time in church should be spent in worship and discipleship, otherwise we will not be equipped for evangelism.
     
  16. JerryL

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    ABSOLUTELY!!
     
  17. tinytim

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    :applause: :applause: :applause:
     
  18. JustChristian

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    But don't you think there needs to be an intermediate state? After evangelizing on the streets, which I wholeheartedly agree with, don't we need to invite the potential Christian to church to hear the gospel preached and to learn the word?
     
  19. Amy.G

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    Yes. That is my point. Our evangelism is done outside of the church and then we bring them in, but once come in they will be exposed to biblical teaching and preaching, not evangelism.
     
  20. blackbird

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    The churches that I've been members of-------from birth---through my personal Profession of Faith and baptism---through my call to ministry---through my college and seminary days----and now for the last 20 years of pastoring

    We've been doing "Purpose" before RW was shaving----shoot----we've been doing "Purpose" before RW was in diapers!!!!! His "Purpose" plan is nothing new----shoot----Peter, James, and John used "Purpose" according to worship, ministry, evangelism, fellowship, and discipleship

    "And they continued steadfastly in the Apostles' doctrine, and in fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayer"------straight from the book of Acts-----but some "Warrenites" will probably swear that RW gave Dr. Luke his advise!!!!!
     

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