Purpose Driven/ Rick Warren stuff...

It isn't inconsisten at all SBC. Of course, theology isn't the strongpoint of those who are Warren's clones.

God doesn't bless the warren trash because it is inconsistent with his word. He distorts man's depravity, gives a halfhearted gospel presentation, markets the gospel as though it is something to sell, etc.

I don't expect you to understand.

 

I think it would be a step in the right direction to back off a little bit, DD. I certainly have grave disagreements with Warren adn with SBC, but a notch down in the rhetoric would be helpful to the conversation.

Warren's stuff has helped people spiritually. It is certainly weak in some areas; he doesn't use Scripture very well; he applies his paradigm in a way that I think compromises some biblical standards. But the purpose driven church is a paradigm completely consistent with Scripture. Being purpose driven doesn't require imitation of Saddleback in any way. A conservative, traditional, fundamentalist church can apply the purpose driven paradigm and see growth and substance. Don't confuse the application of the PDC model with the model itself.

 

Larry, I was speaking of his theology within his system. He is the typical arminian.

 

If this is a reference to me, a couple of points: 1) I am far from a Warren clone. I just find it so funny to see people miss the whole point of the PDC and then resort to "I am more spiritual than you -- you are not one of us" arguments.

2) If you want to compare theology credentials, I am more than willing.

Again, the multitudes of changed lives might disagree with you.

I completely understand your verbiage. I lived in world for too long.

Typical DD response. Lots of bark ...

 

The PDC paradigm isn't Warren's. He didn't invent it. A close Pastor friend of mine actually wrote a paper on the purposes of the church in Seminary. This was LONG before the PDC.

The PDC from Warren's perspective though isn't just about the purposes of the church. It is about how to implement them. He might not say you have to follow his example, but he makes it clear that you shouldn't criticize his example. He goes so far as to say that we shouldn't be critical of what God is blessing. Of course he assumes that God is blessing his methods.

 

Wow -- you do agree with Warren after all. He says from the beginning the purposes are not his. He simply articulates them in a simplistic form and then discusses how they have impletmented them.

Again showing how little you actually know about the model and man.

as you assume God is not. Actually there is only one person in this discussion making assumptions for God.

 

Agreed, Dr B.

 

WOOO HOOO Dr. Bob!!

Kathy
<><

 

I agree with Pastor Larry, my church is one that is doing exactly that, using some of the organizational philosophy from the PDC to structure the programs, while maintaining a strong doctrinal position, and not making merely pragmatic decisions. The ideas presented are not new, and they work. I am not talking about numbers, although in most cases that is inevitable. People want to join themselves to a ministry that is vibrant and growing. One of our key tenets is that when the Word of God increases, the disciples multiply. New disciples mind you, not refugees from other IFB churches only.

 

But what does scripture say. The Word is not theory. It is not theology. It has been interpreted for us, and difficult to divide out this interpretation of the Holy Spirit. God is a God of division. If we ask, He will show us the divisions. Peter says it is difficult to divide the wisdom for us today. Fishermen, and those of all skills and professions can learn, regardless of little or no schooling, or much and even more learning than most. It is the "wisdom" in Christ we are to seek. The Word leds us to this wisdom which is the mind of Christ in us through the Spirit. II Peter 3:15-16, ”And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

I posted the following (concerning Purpose Driven) on the “Poll Forum” today, answering one critiquing my original to Poll about this book, started by Jude.

"July 14, 2004,Posted answering donnA.

I've read it and listened to the videos.
It is not for people who meant to give anyone fulfillment throught work but only shares what the bibles says(giving the scripture) about serving God. It is not meant to prove anyones salvation. There is not guilt involved unless you make excusses not to serve God. Then you are guilty, of disobedience. People who do not want to serve God have a problem and it doesn't start with this book.
Being judged not guilty is of past sins, you can presently be guilty of a sin since salvation.
quote:

I am saved by grace and born to good works, as he points out in his book. I don’t have to work, but we do because of love, just as in our giving.

.
Exactly what the book says. Jesus told us to work and serve and He showed us many times in scripture.

Thanks for the reply donnA. My degree of the worth of the book differs from yours. I can live with that. I wish everyone saw things as I, and you may wish the same from your point of view. James and Paul were at opposite poles. Does this book really reach into the Body of Christ Church? On Page 10 of the book we find from where the thoughts of the book come, and end, even though there are quotes after Pentecost. Forty Days has much to do with the nation Israel, Gods own people. Can you find in scripture 40 days having any meaning to the Body of Christ, where a distinction is not made between Jew and Gentile. They became as I, a Gentile heathen that He did not come for the first time. If we cannot see within the mysteries of God His secret of we in His Body – His inheritance, then does not everything remain the same as from the beginning? God lumped His idol worshiping people in with the “crumb eaters”, the dogs. Israel’s King will come. My Savior is here.

This sincere and learned Pastor only gets 40 days into the New Testament. This points to all by faith, and not much through faith. Starts with 40 days of rain with Noah, ending 40 days with Jesus after his resurrection. What about 50 days when Pentecost came? What about the number of days until the stoning of Stephen when the “unforgivable sin” of Israel occurred, as Jesus says in a parable? What about the 3 years Paul was in the Arabian Desert? Why is Israel under the law mixed with grace of the Christian? The purpose of the book is a journey with those in that dispensation. We are not in that dispensation. Today we are all in the Body of Christ, and reside in the heavenlies with Him through the spirit. If we are Once Saved, Always Saved, where else could we be.

As a matter of fact this book and video tells you service has nothing to do with earning salvation, works are done by those who are saved, not for salvation. Some seem to not relly kknow what it's about.

Amen!

It has made a difference in our church. There are people who have found where they need to be serving God at, and have found why they had trouble in some aresa they were in before, they were not focusing on serving God but on getting things done. It has made a difference in our chrch. But the biggest change should be in the heart, and thats where you can not see, you have no idea what work God is dong in people who have read scriptures. And just becasue you have a problem believing scrirpture does not mean all other people do.

Very well put. I do hope your church is now on the move. This book is for juniors, and the babes in Christ. It should be labeled so. It is fine to review, but why do people become excited about being feed milk that is for the babes.

What scripture/s have I disavowed? Is it not a matter of correctly dividing His Word. God is a God of division. His Word must be correctly divided so to see the interpretation that the Holy Spirit has put before us. I will not put words into your mouth, but you seen to believe everything is the same as from the beginning, or at least from the beginning of the Old Testament that begins with Abraham.

More mature christian already know most of everything in the book they have read it and learned,they have lived it and experienced it and taught it. But it has all been put togehter in one book. Most of it is new to younger less studied christians.
Salvation by grace, discipleship, serving God, evangelism, and missions, fellowship are all in scripture, and God means what He says. He doesn't let us off the hook just becasue we don't beleive Him.

Then you are agreeing with me that this book is after all not meant for the mature. Can you follow along with me. We are to agree with every word in His Word. We should believe Christ while on this earth, and His purpose then, and we should believe Christ as He sits beside His Father in Heaven. I also believe His last words on Salvation are contained in the gospel of Paul. Christ gave Paul this gospel, just as He gave Moses, Moses’ law. I have a faith, not a religion.

II Corinthians 5:15-18, “And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Only in this dispensation can all men choose Jesus. Only today is He reconciling the world unto himself where He resides. He speaks to us in heaven through the Spirit. The carnal man is dead. The Son/Word is alive. The kingdom will come, and we in Christ will be with Him when His kingdom comes to earth, that His people will inherit."

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Hello Dr. Bob. I like your humor, and your attitude, but as yet have not been able to assess your understanding of the gospel of Paul, the last words on salvation from Christ in heaven. I’m new in these parts, and do not mean here to start a dialogue should your understanding of the Word differ from what the Holy Spirit has revealed and interpreted for me in the Word.

My point for wishing to converse is a town, viz. Casper, Wyoming. In a round about way I will get to my interest in this city, but just so you know a little of my background – a small insight. My Grandfather was a Methodist Minister, and my Mother wound up in the Baptist church because of my Sister. I followed. We six: Father, Mother with 4 tots were all then in the SBC. I have three kin, One now dead an Evangelist in the SBC, and one that was a Pastor for at least 30 years, but broke away to his own radio program, and Grace church. And then we have one with a Doctors Degree.

Me? I guess I just fall in with those that endeavor to correctly divide the Word of God. No formal education of Theology, and no Pastorate or Deaconry, with only a smattering of teaching within the Baptist church at a younger age. Today? A Berean Dispensationalist (some say hyper) fits me like a glove, still connected to the Baptist church. Should we wind up in a discussion of the Word, regardless of what is presented by me, it will never be to the intent that others that do not hold to what I have been shown, are not saved or will not enter into the Kingdom of God. In this dispensation, nothing can affect the Christian answer of ”what must I do to be saved? One question and one answer. With this, we then become His inheritance. First the rapture, and then on awaiting the kingdom of heaven to come to this earth. Please don’t take this as a preaching to, as I am not aware of your understanding – but make as a statement of my entrance into Him.

Your Casper, Wyo. caught my eye. I guess the mighty winds still blow, and lots of snow, and cooking out on Casper Mountain. My brother and His wife were connected (members) of two Baptist churches in Casper circa 1957-63, he being in the oil field business. If I’m not mistaken the two churches were mission churches at that time of the SBC, they being Mountain View Baptist, and Boyd Avenue Baptist. Just wondering if they still around?

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Friends,
I'm beginning to feel a bit uncomfortable about all this "Baptist only" dialogue. I urge the powers that be to examine their rules, then enter a season of earnest prayer about just what it means or even accomplishes. Looking forward to your sharing the results.
WallyGator

 

Dr. Bob:
May Brother's wife wishes me to thank you for the information on Mountain View and Boyd. She was happy to hear faith still resides in them. She believes Boyd has close to the same number of members, and knowing numbers do not impress God, this captive audience is holding firm. Mountain View back then housed the very poor as pertaining to material value.

They had intended to join and assist First Southern, but then as now, perhaps just a big monument, and troubled church. However it takes a bunch to make a whole.

We both thank you for this information.

Christian faith, ituttut