Purpose Driven

Molly, how does God grow the church? He uses people! Where is the doctrine of music in the Bible? If you want to be a real purist, you'd better stick with a lyre, tambourine, a trumpet and a cymbal. Oh, and don't forget the shofar. Look, my point is this: God has used many different methods to grow a church. Mr. Warren's method is simply one way. It is the vision that God gave him and he is merely sharing it. Paul and Peter had differing views on how the gospel should be shared. Their methods differed according to their target audience. Paul went to the Greeks, Peter to the Jews. Today we would call that (gasp!) marketing, although we somehow think that sounds worldly. Call it whatever you like, but there is no one single method of evangelism that reaches all. Certainly there is no one style of music that reaches all. I think that when we criticize someone's music we are in fact passing our judgement on their offering to God. Don't think I want to go there.

 

God grows His church through the teaching and preaching of God's word. People(christians) come to church to be equiped and go out to proclaim God's salvation. Then those people,who are God's elect come to church and what do you know...God's church has then grew in numbers,which by the way is not the ultimate goal. The goal is for believers to grow in the knowledge of Christ,not to learn a new gimmick. I am not a *purist*,but I am totally sold out to God's word and I know it works,it is the power unto salvation. A lot of other things(man's ways) seem to be distracting. Depending on a technique or music style in a church is like saying,I don't trust God and His word enough...I've got to come up with something that works better!

 

We are in agreement about the power of the Gospel. My point about the music is that it should glorify God. As to style, that is a personal choice. I think that's all Mr. Warren says as well. You said we should avoid this book. Have you actually read it?

 

I've not only read it,my husband and I have *studied* it,we were given the book by a friend and was told how great it was. We read it one time and was open to it,we read it again and began to discern some problems,then we went through and actually put scripture in with what he said and alot of things he said was in contradiction to scripture. I'm talking quite a few things... He USES methods and styles to appeal to unbelievers...he even says he preaches light messages to encourage,feel good kin of sermons,etc. It reminds me of what God's word says where it states 2 Timothy 4:3-4..."For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine,but according to their own desires,because they have itching ears(want to have their ears tickled),they will heap up for themselves teachers;and will turn their ears away from the truth..."There are a ton of people wanting this kind of church...what does that tell us?

I'm not saying the gospel isn't preached,I believe it is,but I wonder how much of the whole counsel of God is taught.

 

Everyone uses method and style. Would you agree that for some you have to give "milk" before they can be given "solid food"?

 

I believe that when someone becomes a christain God will give them a desire for the meat of the Word,they start with milk,but should not ever stay there. Some believers desire for milk,how do you explain that?

 

No,not everyone uses methods and style,some depend on the Word to do the Work. You see,God's ways do not always mesh with the worlds ways...

 

Once again, I agree...people should not stay on the milk diet. You need the meat to grow. And that is Mr. Warren's whole premise. He goes after the unchurched, gives them milk and then gets them to move on to the solid stuff. As to style and method, I think you would have to agree that no two preachers have the same style of delivery or method of preaching the Word.

 

I believe that expository preaching should be the most preferred style,if that is a style. I think Rick Warren's is mainly topical. Expository is the best for teaching the whole counsel of God,but that is another topic all together.

 

I think both have their place. My preference is expository, but the subject style is a method to reach people with the issues they are dealing with. Was Jesus method expository or subjective?

 

Jesus was God and he taught everywhere he went. I'm talking about the church age(Acts and beyond)...Paul instruted Timothy to "preach the Word..." 2nd Timothy is wonderful advice on how to "do" church. Rick Warren's is a man's technique,not holy scripture.

 

You didn't answer my question: Jesus was also a rabbi. Were his sermons expository or topical?

 

I really do not know the correct answer to that. I do know he told stories(parables) to teach a concept. But,even though he did,I don't think preachers should get into story telling.

I also know we have the Word of God in its entirety now...it is better to teach it the way it was written.

 

Warren's preaching that I have been exposed to is exceedingly weak. It is very much fluff and very little substance. In fact, I had someone attend my church for a while (driving 45 minutes one way to get there) because they were in a seeker church where the preaching was so weak. There is no one correct way to preach. A lot of it depends on the congregation.

The doctrine of music is all throughout the Bible and we should be careful not to be flippant about it. Warren's contention is very wrong on this point.

 

td,

My husband just got home,so I asked him about Jesus's teaching,and He was mainly topical in His teachings...that still doesn't change the way we feel about expository preaching. We just think it is best and we appreciate men who hold up the Word in that *style*...I guess it is a preference,though. I think people learn and grow spiritually under expository preaching,it is defintely the meat of scripture,understanding context,meanings of words,and also meaningful illustrations are okay at times.

 

We agree then. I prefer the expository method as well, however, I feel there is a place for a topical sermon. Personally, I have not heard Mr. Warren preach, so I am not qualified to comment on the strength or weakness of his sermons. I guess it does sadden me when we criticize our brothers in the faith over methods and style of how we share the Gospel. After all, aren't we all on the same team?

As Paul told the church at Corinth: "What after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned each to his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are all God's fellow workers..." (1 Cor. 3:5-9)

Thanks for sharing you thoughts Molly, I enjoyed the debate.