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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Siegfried, Dec 20, 2002.
Is it biblical and do you do it?
I think it is a biblical example of being faithless to God. I will not do it.
Dear Ones In Christ;
If the fleece were to be a demand from God for a specific sign, ie. if You want me to go here then leave a $20 for me on the street, then I would agree with Brother Charley.
If on the other hand the "fleece" is merely a stepping-out in faith and praying for God to provide confirmation, then it could be Biblical. An example would be, should I begin a tract ministry in this part of town? I step out in faith and God confirms through other believers, or certain doors and oportunities being opened.
May God so bless His precious children.
A servant of Christ,
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
Yes, I've done it. However, it involves needing faith, not looking for faith.
Caretaker, I would not disagree with that.
Could someone clue me in? What are y'all talking about? Does it involve sheep?
I often wonder about certain telly and radio programs that warn the audience that if support for "their" ministry does not come then they will have to cancel certain stations. Is this laying our a fleece....or fleecing the people?
George Mueller never made known the needs of his mission publicly, but depended on God for every provision in prayer.
Just some thoughts.
Caretaker, I, too, think that's a good way of putting it. But then I'd wonder if your latter example wuld even be considered putting out a fleece. Receiving a sign of some sort that you're on the right path seems different from asking for one before you act, as Gideon did (Judges 6:36-40, for those who want the reference).
It would seem, though, that we should not rely on sensory signs (like the dryness or dampness of a fleece) to guide our lives.
[ December 20, 2002, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: stubbornkelly ]
The reference is to Judges 6:36ff where Gideon placed the fleece of wool on the floor...checked for the dew on the wool only,,,,then he would do such and such.
Gideon put out a fleece twice. Both times he was making sure that God was serious about keeping his promise.
To me this is not a good thing for us to do. God is faithful in keeping His promises. His character is to be trustworthy. That should be enough for us.
IMO it is at best a questionable practice, and I think Gideon knew it. That's why he was concerned about angering God in doing it (v39).
I often wonder about certain telly and radio programs that warn the audience that if support for "their" ministry does not come then they will have to cancel certain stations.
As of late, I know that several of the tv ministries have had to cut stations, or move to less expensive time slots. Nothing wrong with that. That's business. Funny thing about airtime. It seems to have gone up higher than the rate of inflation, You'd think with the economy the way it is, they'd be adjusting their prices more competitively. Go figure...
I don't have a problem with tv or radio preachers saying that thy're gonna cut stations if those markets don't support it. I DO have a problem with the folks who say God's gonna curse or kill or mame, etc, if revenue doesn't go up.
Joshua, I loved that! You made me laugh right
- - - - - - -
My daughter and son-in-law "put out a fleece"
regarding leaving the church they are in (the one
that booted me), and I was a little put off by it. It
just did not seem the thing to do.
But now, I understand why they did it: that is the
way that church does things, and had they done
it any other way, their pastor and others would
have given them trouble, and the gossip would
have been far worse than it is already going to
One interesting thing, though, was that their pas-
tor said something interesting. My daughter
called me and asked, "When you put out a fleece,
should you withdraw it early?" I responded,
"Once you put something before the Lord, you
leave it there; you Do Not make changes; you
leave it as you said it."
Then she told me that their pastor told them to
withdraw the "fleece," because, he said, "I already
know what God wants," and that was for them to
stay. This was not done in an encouraging, "We'll
miss you" way or even a friendly way; it was
said in anger. Pretty interesting, in altogether
too many ways.
Pray for them. This Sunday, should the month-
long "fleece" continue as it has so far, will be
their last there. It is going to be awkward, sad,
difficult, and eventualy freeing. The hardest
part, as I know too well, will be looking back
at the wasted years.
Their teenage son is having a hard time with this.
I would really appreciate your prayers for him,
- - - - - - - -
I am still laughing! That was priceless!
[ December 20, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
Gideon's "fleece" had nothing to do with the modern idea of taking circumstances as evidence of God's will.
Gideon already had a direct discussion with God (Judg. 6) telling him what to do.
Rather than obeying God, Gideon asked God to prove himself not once, but twice.
Even that didn't convince him; God had to lead him into the Midianites' camp to hear them talking about how they thought they were going to get routed by the Israelites, before he could screw up enough courage to attack.
Some "faith." Who'd want to imitate that?
Jews, from long before that time and until now,
rely upon the idea of "two or three witnesses."
Not once was this discouraged in the Bible;
rather, it is seen in many of the biblical charac-
ters' actions, and it is reiterated in specific
words in the Bible. Further, it is encouraged. I
think that we should all put ourselves in Gideon's
place before being too harsh with him.
The country and its people were a mess. They
were lawless. They were untaught. Gideon was
an "am haaretz"--a country bumpkin with no under-
standing of our God or His ways. I would say he
did very well under those circumstances. What
he did worked, and it was blessed of our God.
Could we, with so little knowledge do as well?
[ December 20, 2002, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
Perhaps so, but you have to admit that the modern practice of "laying out a fleece," for example, "O Lord, if it be Thy will that I ask Alice out to the senior prom, let it be her that answers the phone when I call her house," bears no resemblance to what it was that Daniel was doing.
Daniel's request was borne out of doubt. Modern "guidance" writers (such as Tim LaHaye in Finding the Will of God in a Crazy, Mixed-up World see the "fleece" as an act of faith.
Daniel's fleece was a miraculous sign. The modern "fleece" is merely providential, if that.
Daniel's fleece was to seek confirmation of instructions he received from God himself. The modern "fleece" is a means of choosing a course of action.
Daniel's instructions were clear and direct. The modern "fleece" is intended to interpret subjective, inward impressions that are supposedly the promptings of Holy Spirit.
There is one other reason that I am very leery of the "fleece": God's law says not to practice divination (Lev. 19:26), one form of which is augury, the interpretation of omens, what the KJV calls "observing times." Is this not what a modern "fleece" is - determining God's will by observing circumstantial signs? None for me, thanks.
As I said earlier, in a previous note, I would not
consider doing a fleece and i was shocked that
my daughter did. This is something she will learn
in time, with better teaching, away from that
church. Unlike Gideon, we have the Holy Spirit,
who will lead us to all truth.
Sometimes, people are in places where they are
kept spiritually ignorant by being taught by the
spiritually ignorant. I think we should give them a
break and not be so quick to criticize.
Sure, I could have said something--I was think-
ing lots o0f things! But there are times to say
something, and there are times to be silent. That
was the latter. 8o)
"Putting out a fleece" is a kind of way to ask God to give you a sign, but Jesus said:
38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas
A few sign miracles were performed after Pentecost, but since (IMHO) have ceased. Dr. John Whitcomb gives a great presentation of the reasons why sign miracles have ceased.
Paul also reminded the Corinthians:
2 Corinthians 5
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
As I am a fan of the man above George Mueller this
is a tricky subject religion here in the UK is not
as displayed as in the US you have too many people
on the bandwagon telling people so many things....
The money spent on Radio and TV in the name of any
Religion is GOT right out of hand. Its the Sinners
world who make the money not the christians and we
as believers GET FLEECED. Sorry but that how it is
if there was another way someone will find it....