Pyramid Selling Groups or Cults?

LOL, Dr. Bob and I may be the exceptions to what I posted....My wife does well in hers, and I believe Doc's wife does well in hers. What lucky men we are!

For many, it becomes too much of an obsession. One must know how to keep God first in it and not let Him slip into another position.

AVL1984

 

][/QUOTE]So you will not work or get a job?

MLM (multi-level marketing) is not about greed. It is a business that makes money to pay the bills. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Hi there,
yes, I do believe in working for a living. Interestingly, Amway claim that if you go their way, soon all those you have recruited under you will do all the work, and you will just live a life of ease.
Concerning your second point, I can only repeat, EVERY Amway presentation I have recieved or read about begins with the "dream" concept to wet your appetite for greed. That is, their sales pitch IS greed. They didnt say, "we sell good stuff cheep", they said "join us we are going to be millionares". They themselves claim to sell a dream, that belonging to them is an act of faith. I dont get that when I buy toothpaste from Kmart. A friend went to an Amway convention and returned saying it was like a Penticostal meeting, except greed was what was being worshipped.
The Bible is very clear that we should work for a living (2 Thess 3:10). It is also very clear that greed is spiritual poison for believers (Colossians 3:5 etc.).
Take care, Colin

 

Just a follow up.
I thought it might be helpful to include some outside sources on this. Obviously, I cant
vouch for their accuracy, but they do conform to my own experiences and
conversations with others re Amway. The thread is on the cult-like aspects of Amway,
and this info relates directly relate to that.
Cult experts such as Steve Hassan list Amway as cult-like, and Forbes Magazine
(December 9, 1991 by Paul Klebniov) described Amway as “A unique business,
Amway. A mass movement more than a corporation. It has made a very few people
very rich while paying its foot soldiers more in inspiration than in cash. One must turn
outside the world of business - to religion and politics - to find people who work as
hard for as little financial reward as most Amway people do. The basic pitch:
Whatever your dream is - a boat? a fancy car? kid's education? - it is within your
grasp if you just devote some of your spare time to selling Amway products and
recruiting other people to sell them. ...The average foot soldier doesn't make much
money for his or her efforts. This is where the inspiration comes in. When he says,
"Amway is more than a company; it's a movement" DeVos isn't just spouting
propaganda. Amway promises, in effect: Join Amway, work hard and, with almost no
capital investment, you too can become as rich as Bill Britt or Dexter Yager. It's up to
you. They are expected to read self-improvement books (popular titled include
"Believe!" and "How to be Happy though Married"). They purchase and listen to
Amway-sponsored inspirational cassettes (usually live recordings of their "upline"
leaders' speeches and seminars). ..Amway rallies typically resemble a mix between
a rock concert and a religious revival meeting. The evenings are often kicked off
with inspiring music - the theme from "Rocky" say, or "Chariots of Fire" - followed
by much audience hand-holding, singing, swaying and listening to testimonials. Some
Amway leaders, such as Dexter Yager, are famous for working their crowds into
Amway chants and ... their audiences with inspirational speeches that last ... If
Amway sounds like a commercial version of fundamental religion, DeVos offers
no apologies.”

Likewise, the Electronic Mail&Guardian / August 17, 1998.
“Pop music is blaring out of the heavy-duty speakers in the Heritage Hall, where I join
the multi-racial crowd gathered in worship of the money god. Microphones waving
in their hands, the two jump up and down to the sound of a Rolling Stones hit. "We
get excited because there's a lot of people making a lot of money," they cry... At age
36, [Gad] Gabriel, a former dentist whose parents are Egyptian, strides on to the stage
like a Sumo wrestler. "Do you want to be free?'' cries the tall man. "Yes, yes," chants
the frenzied crowd as they stomp their feet and clap their hands. This is supposed to
be a business building seminar, but it pulses more like a heavy-duty brainwashing
session to me. In his dry, nasal twang he goes on to gloat about how he was able to
retire several years ago. "Anyone here want to be free?" he bellows. A sea of hands
goes up, followed by people excitedly screaming: "Yeessss!" "Tapes, Books,
Function," he scribbles on an overhead projector. "To Be Free!" As Gabriel preaches:
"You have to have a reason for doing this. You have to have a dream something to
drive you. The second thing is that you have to have a list of everybody you know."

“The dream is the overwhelming motivation for doing the business. The dream is
what pushes distributors on and on to do things that other people wouldn't consider
normal or proper. The dream is the motivation to push people out of their comfort
zone to contact their friends and eventually to cold contact. The dream is fulfilled by
showing the plan to anyone and everyone; as many times as needed to go Diamond.
The dream is what helps put your rational thoughts behind you and makes you
open to their new ideas and behaviors that are crucial in recruiting other people and
keeping out "negative thoughts"..

“If the dream is big enough, the facts dont count” Dexter Yager Crown Direct
Distributor Quoted by Executive Diamond Louie Carrillo Tape SOT627- Quit
Quitting on Yourself

Does this still sound like a normal business to you?
To quote from some web-sites, “AmQuix is done on faith alone as there is little
factual data available on incomes or pin retention rates. The first few years are usually
money losing years due to the negative sum game of a networking only business.
IBOs trying to figure out business and economic reasons why the business works
will be labeled as having "detailitis". The IBO or prospect seeks information to
justify in their mind that the business is logical and rational. IBOs focusing on why it
works will have a much harder time in the business than one who accepts it on faith.
The business if far from logical and rational. Given the lack of competitive advantages
of the product line pricing, it really thrives on irrational behavior, rather than good
business fundamentals. “I admit I was caught up in the hyping of the “dream” and
delayed investigating the hard facts about this business.” IBO site visitor
“At this point I knew things were bad and I wanted out, but my husband didn't. We
lost our home. We then were forced to move in with my parents. But my husband
continued to "build the business." And I was labeled as a "dream stealer" and
"negative." They told him not to worry about me--that I would come around when the
money started flowing in. My husband soon isolated himself from even his own
family--because they were supposedly "dragging him down" too.”
“They don't want to lose the feeling of belonging. This is also when rally cries, like
"all you need is a dream!" and "if you have a dream the facts don't count!", begin to
sound very sound and logical and touch their deepest heart. And so they defend the
business and their actions, with similar statements. They feel justified in behaving like
this because they have been told they are doing exactly what the Diamonds and
Emeralds did. The skeptical minds receive illogical arguments, urban myths and cold
shoulders when sound, logical business fundamentals are presented to them. It is
difficult for believing IBOs to argue with facts and figures when the business is such
an emotion-based phenomenon. Often, all they can do is speak the Amway-ease, or
Am-speak they have learned from tapes and upline. This is all in the unconscious hope
that they can protect their precarious sense of self-worth.
You spend progressively more and more time showing the plan, following up,
prospecting, cold calling, listening to tapes, attending functions, reading success
books, calling baby sitters and counseling with your upline. Your upline counsels you
to just keep going, to keep your eyes on your goal and to always have the money for
motivation because without motivation you'll get overwhelmed by "the negative" and
will fail. You become a motivation addict.

Stephen Butterfield: Because, let's face it, most distributors in the organization are
not going to make money, they're going to lose, so what's going to keep them involved
is constant brainwashing and manipulation...cult style tactics.
American Journal: You have to build a network of hundreds of independent
distributors before you turn a worthwhile profit ... The first step on getting into
Amway is going to an introductory meeting. You're not allowed to bring video
cameras, so we went in undercover. There we were told how little effort it takes to
make lots and lots of money.
Amway distributor (on hidden camera): So I am talking about $100,000 that you
can make in your spare time without giving up what you do during the day.
Another distributor: Imagine going home tonight and thinking what life would be
like being totally free. Can you imagine, Andy, waking up at the crack of noon?
AJ: Critics say they hook you by telling you over and over again that through Amway
your dreams will come true.
Amway distributor: We dream Mercedes-Benz. We dream little Porsches. Maybe if
you had big dreams, you'd dream Lamborghini, or Ferrari, or Maserati, or something
nuts.
AJ: John says before he knew it, his commitment to Amway became the main focus
of his life.
John Hanrahan: You wake up in the morning, you have your Amway toothbrush.
You have your Amway toothpaste. You have your Amway deodorant. You listen to
your Amway tapes on the way to work. You have an Amvox answering machine
system that you call into several times a day to get your motivational messages...
SH: They advise distributors to not read the newspapers. They advise distributors not
to watch television. And surprisingly enough, distributors listen.
PH: The deceitfulness that I saw, that the way they taught him to operate. They go
through the want ads, people selling things, and they call up acting as if they're
interested in buying, but then a week later they call them back. Stop to help someone
on the highway...you're a nice person because you stopped to help, but they get names
and phone numbers and they call the people back a week later.
AJ: Pat Henry says her husband's personality changed drastically...
PH: I would not go out with him in public. And I knew his real reason for making
friends with people...it wasn't for true friendship, it was to get a person to join.
AJ: Distributors are egged on by motivational books and rallies...there are meetings
that last well into the wee hours of the morning.
JH: When you get tired you become more receptive to outside influence.
AJ: During the day, you are supposed to listen to tapes that, among other things, give
you advice on how to behave...
SH: It's very personal, private information. For instance, how to interact with your
wife, how to raise your children, what your religious beliefs should be.
AJ: Distributors are also told to eliminate what are known as "negatives."
JH: Anybody who says anything "negative" about Amway becomes basically the
enemy. First of all, they have you make a list of your friends and your relatives and
your neighbors and people that you know, and you try to get them in the business. If
they don't have anything to do with it, you don't associate with them any more...they're
not your friends any more. You're going to have new friends, your going to have an
Amway family.
Now, maybe this is not true of all Amway types, I wouldn’t know. It does ring true for
all I have met, and I dont think it is healthy, or Christian, do you?
Take care, Colin

 

Not all MLM are like Amway though. I know for a fact that Creative Memories is not. In Creative Memories, no matter high up you get, you still have to sell the product. If you don't, then you get deactivated, which means you can no longer order from the main company and your name is taken off their computers as a consultant. Everyone under you is bummbed up to the person who recruited you. In a true pyrmid scheem it doesn't matter. You get to a point to where everyone under you is selling and you make money off of people who your recruits make. In MLM, you only get a small % of comission on a few downlines. In Creative Memoires it only goes to 3rd downline. That means if You recruit your sister, she recruits her mother-in-law and her mother-inlaw recruits a friend, and the friend recruits her mother, you only get a small % of your sister, her mother-in-law and her friend. However if you don't make a $500 retail order in a calnder month every 3 months, then you get nothing and are deactivated.

And maybe all Creative Memories Consultants are not like this, but the group I was with and the co-Founder, Rhonda Anderson, all encourage you in your walk with Christ.

I tried to sell Creative Memories. I was trying to use it as a minisrty. I wanted to teach people how to leave their faith in their photo-albums. However, my mother thought it was a Pyrmid scheem and told everyone that the product was overpriced and not worth it. Or at least she told my family this in front of me, so I wonder what she said behind my back. The problem is I don't know anybody that she doens't know and so I was stuck. No one would hold a class for me. What my mother didn't understand was you pay for what you get. The same goes true for anything most of the time. With Creative Memories, the products are tested to last for several lifetimes and if it doesn't look like it did before the test, it's right back to the drawing board. But I believe that you would need to find a consultant in your area to ask about the products. I know that some consultants are scrapbookers and teach that end of it. My team were Photo Album Makers and we taught a quick and easy way of preserving your memories and faith in your photo albums for genarations to come. I'm not sure how Amway works other than recruiting, but I do know that with Creative Memories the heart of the buisness is home classes and word of mouth. We so many restrictions on how to advertise, that I couldn't get my buisness off of the floor. However, everyone else around me was doing great!

Stacie

 

Genuinely glad to hear it,
God bless, Colin

 

You make it sound like you can get the same exact product on the shelf at Walmart - this has not been my experience.

Also, the parent MLM company adds their own markup to the product before passing it along to the distributors - usually a very large one. How many of the company owners do you know?

Did you know that when the ecomomy gets tight, and jobs scarce, that MLM membership goes up? A lot of these folks are buying the '"dream" with their reserves - and within six months will no longer be with the MLM. The "dream" turns into a "nightmare".

 

To be exact, they're not pyramids. They're multi-level marketing organizaions. Amway, Tupperware, Avon, and Mary Kay are the most common companies that work this way. The updise is the autonomy that each selling agent has. The down side is that some people who sign up as selling agents don't know when to turn off the sales light.

My friend, you're not dealing witha cult. However, you're dealing with a samesman, who happens to be a friend of yours. The best course of action is to (bluntly, but politely) express no interest whatsoever in his orgnization.

 

Having been in Network Marketing (MLM) off and on over the past 25 years, my wife and I found early on that heavy handed tactics only got a person unwilling recruits, unsatisfied customers, etc. Network marketing is good if the representative knows how to sort out those who are interested in either the product or the opportunity and then stop trying to sell someone who's not interested on either of the previous. It's pushy overzealous and dishonest reps that have given Network Marketing a bad rap.

AVL1984

 

I don't think we have enough information to know whether the friend is involved in a MLM thing or a pyramid scheme. Both of these groups can be cultic, though not all MLMs are, as has been pointed out. So it's better to give Ben all the cautions just in case. There are Christian MLMs that do have strong cultic characteristics, led by a strong leader, where people are told God will bless them if they sell, God won't bless them if they don't, and other stuff that is very manipulative.