Question about a Catholic litany V2...

That's the right approach!

God bless you Jim!

 

Some of us have already been indoctrinated by their doctrine for 20 plus years, and then encounter some confused Catholics who post things that the Catholics don't believe and allege that they do believe. No wonder the confusion! Even the Catechism contradicts itself.

 

And then there are some of us who were indoctrinated by Baptist doctrine for 20 plus years and then see the light!

 

You were probably a member of a liberal Baptist Church where no sound doctrine was taught.

But the real question is: What light did you see?

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

Actually I was a member of a Baptist church in the SBC, graduated from Cal Baptist College (now university) in Riverside, CA (also SBC) although I attended Biola for my first two years. I was a 'fightin fundie! I was also pretty closed minded. I think I was a typical Baptist.

I began visiting this board and following the many threads in this forum which often debated catholic teaching. I began to read books by Carl Keating, Scott Hahn, Steve Wood and other former evangelicals who became Catholic.

I still come to this board with the intent to learn. Although most Catholics are banned from the board there are still those who challenge the anti-Catholicism in this forum and do a marvelous job of it.

With rare exception, most of the ex-Catholics who post in this forum have a pitiful knowledge of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. They usually claim to have been well catechized but then their postings prove otherwise. They haven't acquainted themselves with Catholic apologetics before or after they made the switch nor do they intend to do so. That's sad. Personally, I had to read a lot from both sides of the debate before I made my decision.

 

Besides attending several Catholic bible studies, I also attend one at the Freewill Baptist Church down the street. We study and pray together, love one another in the Lord.

 

Most of the people here speak from their heart. They are born again believers that have a passion to win others. Some will have beliefs similar to mine.

It is impossible to believe and accept evangelical doctrine (that is that the gospel alone can save--faith alone in Christ and in his sacrificial work), and to believe in the doctrine of the RCC and to be saved at the same time. The two systems of doctrines are quite opposed to each others.

You can't be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time.
You can't be a Hindu and a Christian at the same time.
You can't be a Catholic and a Christian at the same time.

These belief systems are opposed to each other. You can't sit on the fence. You either are one or the other. If you have chosen the RCC, you have chosen it over and above true Biblical Christianity, just as those who have rejected Christianity and chose Islam instead. It is the same thing. It is called apostasy.

You no doubt came to that position by listening to the absolute best apologists for the Catholic faith that they have. One billion Catholics, and the names that you listed are right on top. They have no better. We don't have people like Josh McDowell or other Christian apologists on this board. But if you listen to error long enough you will start believing it. And I feel sorry for you. You read their information, and began to believe it. It makes me regret even more that we ever let any of them in, in the first place. Now you can see first hand the damage they have done.
You have experienced it.

 

The reason most in our faith believe some Catholics are saved is not because of the RCC entity, but despite it. Personally, I believe with all of my heart that many, many Catholics who by catholic church standards are not in good standing are the very ones saved. God is sovereign, but one of the basic ways this happens is Catholics who do not get so involved in the catholic church machinery, and actually shun it. They read their Bibles, and come to a saving knowledge of the Lord through faith.

Just to be totally honest, there are many on our Baptist rolls that have not darkened the door ways in decades, that show no sign of salvation. So, I can only conclude, there will be those on Baptist rolls in hell and those on Catholic rolls in heaven.

However, the difference is that Baptist churches in general aid in spreading the Gospel and discipleship. Catholic churches are a hindrance, and it takes a miracle from God to protect believing Catholics from their own church.

 

While some of the core issues surrounding the papacy deal with final authority and justification, et. which are very important doctrines, I believe it falls short of something even more weighty.

The papacy is a usurper of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It takes the titles:

1. Holy Father: This belongs to God the Father alone.
2. Head of the Church: This belongs to Christ alone.
3. Vicar of Christ: This belongs to God the Holy Spirit alone.

Yet the popes have assumed these titles to themselves and have exalted themselves to be lords over all creation. What is more, is they/it have stood in the temple of God and said these things.

What's more they are arrayed in scarlet and purple.

What's more is they are drunk with the blood of the martyrs.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
( Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9 )

 

You know the taking of these titles upon the Catholic Clergy has always bothered me. I was never bothered so much by calling a priest "Father" but I am bothered by the titles mentioned above. It too closely resembles the actions of men who are attempting to attain power for themselves. Peter never took such a title. He is and always known as Peter. Paul could have given himself such a title but did not.

 

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

I took your words above only to make a point, or to point something out to you, in your own testimony, that I hope may enlighten you. You have, either knowingly or unknowingly, shown how you were taken away from the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ and led away into error.

Consider the prophecy and warning of the Apostle Paul from 2 Timothy. Didn't he warn you and I that seducers would arise, who themselves are decieved and would be decievers?

What this means practically, is that their apologetics is largely built on sophistry rather than truth.

 

Those titles have been taken by the office of the popes/papacy. But the priests are to be called father?

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matt 23:9

Let's go further in looking at the teaching of Christ:

And can we draw a comparison with the papacy and other religious persons who take on the same attitude as these religious Jews once did? So the priests do not put on phylacteries, but what do they put on to show themselves holy men?

They wear their robes and their colars and put large hats on their heads. They call themselves clergy and the "common man" a lay-person. They love to be called "father" or "reverend" or "pastor so-and-so" and are not content with brother.

In Rome Antichrist establishes a seat above the kings of the earth and in protestant/evangelical churches they put their high-back thrones on stage and take their seats in the high places.

These words of Christ ought to sting many of us as it did these Jews so long ago...because they are as applicable today as they were then.

I have heard some Roman Catholics call protestant church leaders "protestant popes" and I believe there are places where this is indeed true. But this sets the record for pot calling the kettle black!

How is it, that the protestant Christians are to be judged from a papal throne that exalts itself as Universal Bishop over all Christendom! And not just over all Christendom, but over all mankind! And not their bodies only but also their very conscience!

What great swelling words of arrogance.

 

The father issue is not a big one for me. I spent a lot of time oversees in Africa and tribal leaders are called father. I call my father; father I call the founders of the US fathers; So I have no issue. In fact this verse is often quoted and I find a stict use of it in one instance and neglectful use of it in other instances means that the use of it is illigitimate. What is that passage really saying about call no man your Father. Context of time and culture at this point would provide a better interpretation. Or we are wrong to have men called Reverend, Pastor, etc...

 

The title issue is secondary to a much more troubling core issue. It has been stated again and again, but cannot be said enough. Created beings worship a Creator. That means that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, being the Creator and God, are the only ones we worship, pray to, or gives all the honor and glory They deserve. This is the core of the title problem. We do not worship or pray to dead saints (a status conferred upon individuals by an evil organization), we do not put living created beings such as popes, priests, bishops or cardinals in some special sinless status to be worshiped or adored. We do not pretend that magic is occuring at the two ordinances (baptismal regeneration and transubstitution (or like nonense). We do not rewrite the Gospel to add a list of "to dos" to faith in Jesus Christ.

No, the titles are sad, a symptom of a sick, evil infrastructure. Appearances of Mary, aside from being most likely baloney, do nothing for the salvation of one person. In a real demon possession, holy water or blessings will not make it. Don't you all see a pattern in all of this? Instead of the power of Jesus Christ, you are using magic tricks, ceremonies, traditions, anything but the real thing.

 

I'm not sure I participated in the previous thread, so I don't think I was asked this (unless my memory is worse than I think!).

We are not made sinless when we are justified; we are declared righteous. This is only due to the righteousness of Christ. I posted verses to that effect. I may not have had this one:

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There are lots more - it would take awhile to post them all. Are you questioning that we are declared righteous when we believe? This is partly what the whole book of Romans is about.

Sanctification is being conformed to the image of Christ and is a process. It is the continuation of the redemptive process; we are justified (declared righteous) when we believe; we are being made righteous in actuality as a process, being conformed to the image of Christ; we will be free from the presence of sin after death.

Justification: Free from the penalty of sin (past one-time action for a believer)
Sanctification: Free from the power of sin (ongoing throughout life)
Glorification: Free from the presence of sin (future, after death)

The NT talks about redemption/salvation in past, present, and future. We are not sinless when we believe! We are declared righteous so that if we die at that moment, we do not suffer the penalty for sin.

But at that point until our death, we are freed from the power of sin. We are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness (Rom. 6: 6, 18). This is sanctification.

Finally, we are free from the presence of sin after death.

 

The Passage doesn't indicate just religious.

 

No, I don't think you did, but don't worry, no-one else answered the question!

Agreed
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Nope; I'm asking how and when that declaration becomes reality. For example, the US Declaration of Independence was signed July 4th 1776 but it only became a reality after the victories at Saratoga in 1777 and Yorktown in 1781 which led to the Peace of Paris in 1783.
Sanctification is being conformed to the image of Christ and is a process.

Yes, but how?

Yes, but how? As I said to SN, if my last words are rather 'stronger' than "Oh dearie me" as I see the fatal truck hurtling towards me, how do I go from that sinful moment straight into the face-to-face presence of God without at least my first words to Him being "Whoops, sorry, Boss!"?