Question about a Catholic litany V2...

Insults are the refuge of those who know they've lost the argument.

 

You cannot give one verse in support of your fairy tale of a purgatory on the way to heaven. It shouts clearly of the belief in a works salvation. Do you think Peter Pan lives there?

 

I'm done here; this is a dialogue of the deaf.

 

No it is a dialogue between Scripture and heresey, and dont let the door hit you on the way out.

 

don't blame you...trying to hold a civil, logical conversation with someone who "thinks" they are right on every subject...is like trying to clap with one hand...

What it all boils down to is that SN believes he's his own infallible pope when it comes to interpreting Holy Scripture...quite silly in a way and sad too...

In XC
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I am glad you came to that realization. You can purchase the Saturneptune Bible at any Christian book store for 19.99. For 35.00, you can get a copy with my infallible study notes.

 

To angus, lori, and matt

After thinking about the exchange of posts in these three threads regarding the Catholic Church, I want to apologize for some of my phrases. I could have made my case without mocking the Pope, Mary, your sacraments, and the use of the term cult. These are all very important to your faith, and the posts could have been made without the smart remarks. I will tone down my posts, and stick to the facts, and again, my apologies.

 

Apology accepted and please accept my apology if I've seemed abrasive in any of my previous post's.

Obviously, we're all pretty passionate when it comes to discussing theology. I was a former Baptist, that went Soul Winning every Saturday and loved to debate Catholics too, so I do understand.

If we can just debate the issues and try to come to an understanding, even if that understanding is to agree to disagree, we all will come out on top.

In XC
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Thanks for the kind reply. I read back through some of the threads, and some of my remarks were really rude, especially degrading the Pope, the Church, and making light of things like hail Marys. Sometimes it is easy for me to get into a back and forth pattern that if kept unchecked, results in this. I was looking for some insults from you all, and found none, maybe some implied. No doubt you could have said, if we had a service after a pot luck dinner, we would have had to roll ourselves up to the altar.

 

Sometimes I ask the question:
God is holy, and I am not. How can I, being sinful (not holy), stand before a holy God? That is the problem that all mankind faces.

The answer lies in salvation: when a person trusts Christ as their Saviour. At that point in time he is justified and made righteous in the sight of God.
Romans 5:1 states: "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God."
Simply put "justification" means "just as if I never sinned." Now when God looks down upon me he does not see the sinful DHK, he sees me justified, or clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. He does not see my sin. He has promised that my sin is cast behind his back, buried in the depths of the deepest sea, never to be remembered again. It is gone.
Now, that is dealing with my salvation. As far as my salvation is concerned I can never lose it because my sins are eternally forgiven. The gift of God is eternal life, which He will never take away.

But there is this matter of sanctification which starts at salvation and continues throughout our life right to the end of our life. It is about our walk with God, our state of holiness, our Christian walk. In relation to salvation my sins are forgiven; I am a part of the family of God. But, now in God's family, sin can strain my relationship with my heavenly Father. Thus it is written in 1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." This is written to Christians, not the unsaved. It is written that our relationship with our heavenly Father may be restored when sin comes between me and my Father. Sanctification is an on-going process. It will never make us perfect. That will never take place until we reach heaven. But there is no place between earth and heaven. When we die we go straight to heaven, and our reward will be waiting for us for the time we have spent down here living for him.

 

While an apology like this demonstrates Christain maturity and humility which all will aknowledge, I am less inclinded to find it necessary.

When the Roman Catholic Church fesses up to hundreds of years or murder, rape, and mayhem and atrocities that make Hitler look like an angel, then I will think an apology for strong words against the papal tyranny appropriate.

 

Well, again, I'm not Roman Catholic, but hasn't the Roman Catholic Church apologized for this or at least acknowledged? Maybe someone can elaborate that knows more, but if the RCC has...you should really accept it and get over it...it's in the past.

And don't think for a second the poor Protestants were the only victims...The Crusaders on their way to liberate the Holy Land from the Muslims had to go through areas populated by Orthodox...Constantinople was sacked at least 3, maybe 4 times and you are familiar with what it means to "sack" an area. Constantinople wasn't the only victim either.

Only recently has the Pope of Rome reached out to the East to mend relationships and slowly some wounds are healing and what was rightfully Constantinople's relics are being returned.

The Orthodox monks on Mt. Athos today still don't think to kindly of the RCC...and many, like extreme fundamentalism in Protestantism believe the Pope of Rome to be the Antichrist...

In XC
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First of all, your choice of languge seems snide. I am not accusing you have that, just pointing it out. "And don't think for a second the poor Protestants were the only victims..." lol

No matter, yes, the papal beast has gone after protestants, non-protestants, Jews, et. There seemed no limit to their persecutions.

Secondly, it is not extreme funamentalism to think the papacy to be Antichrist. It is actually odd and off their statements of faith that the Reformed Confessional churches seem to no longer hold this form of doctrine. It is contained in the Westminter and I would think even an Orthodox such as yourself would hardly view the Westminster Divines as extremists! So you must ask yourself, why such characterizations?

I am not aware of any aknoweldgement of the papacy in its persecutions against "heretics" such is the Waldenses and hosts of others where they went as far as pushing women clutching their babies off of cliffs.

No, I am sorry...I have not seen or heard of them repent of these deeds.

 

I've been away so I just saw this, although I think a few others answered.

How we are conformed to the image of Christ is through the power of the Holy Spirit. We are made holier and holier. As the Spirit convicts, we respond (hopefully; we can resist but then God often gets us to see our issue another way and we learn). Our heart and desires change - we lose the desire to sin in certain areas we once sinned in. We have more of a desire to please God and to be like Christ. This is supernatural work but we are responding.

When we stand before God, we will not be perfect in our strength -- the righteousness of Christ fills in the gaps and God sees His righteousness in us. I think in heaven we lose the desire to sin completely and of course, we are not tempted there.

 

Thank you for your gracious apology; please accept mine too for my borderline ad hominems that winged your way earlier this week.

 

Just to pick up on this last point (up until which I was with you 100%) - how?

 

Good post DHK. However, I would like to point out that the last part conseptually is what the Orthodox and the Catholics call Theosis. That is this view that those groups think of when they think of Purgatory. Sanctification. They beleive that just a transmigration to heaven isn't suffiecient to perfect sanctification thus Theosis continues after death as well(and thus purgatory though that is only Catholic; Orthodox believe theosis continues after death but do not call it purgatory). FYI on those churches perspective with regard to this discussion.

 

We are not told but I think it's reasonable to conclude the sanctification process comes to full completion at that point.

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil 1.6

 

Yes but HOW??!! Does God wave a magic wand when you - freshly deceased - are ushered into His presence and say "Hello and welcome! Not only are you forgiven your sin but now you're actaully totally free of it"? And, if He does, why doesn't He do that in this life here on earth?

 

If you were ushered into the presence of God, and God were to ask you: "Why should I allow you into my Heaven, what would you answer?

One who has trusted Christ as Savior can honestly answer, "not because of any merit I have done, but because I was clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ which was given to me the day I trusted Christ."

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Propitiation is a legal term meaning satisfaction. He paid the penalty and satisfied the legal demands of God that the penalty for my sins in full payment has been made. I pay nothing. Jesus paid it all. Salvation is therefore a free gift. I simply must accept it by faith.