Question about Adam & Eve?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. TaliOrlando

    TaliOrlando
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    Did they have babies before the fall.

    Passage Genesis 3:16:

    16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


    Did they have babies before the fall. When God says in pain thou shalt bring forth children. How could she know the difference.
     
  2. bapmom

    bapmom
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    The Bible does not say she had babies before the Fall. Cain was her firstborn.

    God saying she'd now know more pain in childbirth does not mean that she knew what childbirth was like before the Fall. It means that there was a change, and that now she was going to have to live with that change.
     
  3. bmerr

    bmerr
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    TaliOrlando,

    bmerr here. bapmom gave a good answer. If I may, I'd like to offer a comparison to illustrate.

    We all understand that the best way to enjoy the blessings of God is to enjoy them in the way that He intended for us to enjoy them. Take sex, for example. The best way for a man and woman to enjoy sex is to maintain their sexual purity until marriage, and give themselves, pure and unspoiled, to their husband or wife, as the case may be. That is the way that God intended for sex to be enjoyed.

    However, if, as is all too often the case, a man or woman does not keep themselves pure until marriage, they can never experience sex the way that God intended for them to. It will never be their first time experiencing sex on their honeymoon with their spouse.

    Eve would never know what it could have been like to give birth in a world untainted by sin. She made a bad choice, and that was simply one of many consequences.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    That is true - and it is key that the sinless unfallen humans (Adam and Eve) had to BOTH sin for BOTH to be cast out. Had their been sinless perfect infants born who could not have sinned as did their parents - their natures would still be sinLESS they would have remained "unfallen".

    (So much for humanity being comprised of ape-like animals in caves with one named "Adam" that suddenly "got the wrong idea" while eating a monkey-brain breakfast)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Amy.G

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    Good point.


    :laugh: :laugh:
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    HP: Why do you say this? If Adam and Eve had sinless natures and fell, why would their posterity, if born without sin, have to remain unfallen? Did I miss something?
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The question was regarding babies before the fall. My point is tht sinless beings must choose to sin to be "fallen". The unfallen - sinless children of Adam (in the hypothetical case for the OP where they would have existed) could not be condemned for the choice/sin of their parents. It is only by virftue of the fact that all the children of Adam were born to him AFTER the fallt that they were born with sinful natures and where also living outside the Garden of Eden.

    Adam's nature did not "become fallen" as soon as Eve Sinned. The connection for "getting" a fallen nature is heredity not proximity.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. bmerr

    bmerr
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    Bob,

    bmerr here. One can no more inherit sin than one can inherit speech. Both are learned.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    I would argue that the only way that Romans 3 can be correct "NO ONE seeks after God -- NOT EVEN ONE" is in the context of the sinful nature itself. Obviously at the time Paul was writing Romans 3 he was a Christian AND he instructed his readers to "follow my example".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. bmerr

    bmerr
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    Bob,

    bmerr here. I would look back to Ps 14, where Paul was quoting from, and notice the distinct groups mentioned there.

    Ps 14:1-7 [with short comments]

    1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none [of them] that doeth good.

    2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men [compare with Gen 6:2, Ps 12:1], to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    3 They are all gone [not born] aside, they are all together become [not born] filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. [note the two groups]

    5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous [who are these if all are born sinners?].

    6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

    7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

    Can you see how God's people are shown as separate from the children of men, or fools?

    Ps 53 is very similar to Ps 14, as well.

    Both righteousness and unrighteousness are patterns of behavior that are learned from our parents or others who influence us.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
    #10 bmerr, Apr 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2007
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Because it starts out talking about fools It is easier to go to Psalms 14 and argue "only SOME do not seek after God" than it is to say that Romans 3 is not talking about ALL --

    All - "all flesh" - "Whole World" ETC.

    The Sinful nature of all mankind


    9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
    10 as it is written, "" THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS,
    NOT EVEN ONE
    ;
    11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS [b
    ]NONE WHO SEEKS
    FOR GOD;


    [/b]
    12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.''
    13 "" THEIR
    THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,'' "" THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS
    '';
    14 "" WHOSE
    MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING
    AND BITTERNESS'';
    15 "" THEIR
    FEET ARE SWIFT
    TO SHED BLOOD,
    16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY
    ARE IN
    THEIR PATHS,
    17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY
    HAVE NOT KNOWN
    .''
    18 "" THERE
    IS NO FEAR OF GOD
    BEFORE THEIR EYES.''


    19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
    20 because by the
    works of the Law no flesh will be justified[/b] in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
     
    #11 BobRyan, Apr 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2007
  12. bmerr

    bmerr
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    Bob,

    bmerr here. The fact that all men are guilty of sinning is not proof that man has a sinful nature inherited from Adam.

    Adam was not created with a sinful nature, yet he seems to have sinned at the first temptation to do so. Why?

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  13. billwald

    billwald
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    Or the Patriarchs, Apostles, and Paul were "seeking after evil" and God turned it into good.
     
  14. billwald

    billwald
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    The problem is always in the pronouns. Christians always apply good stuff pronoins to themselves and bad stuff pronouns to others e.g. we are elect but they seek evil.
     
  15. Shiloh

    Shiloh
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    The problem is always in the pronouns. Christians always apply good stuff pronoins to themselves and bad stuff pronouns to others e.g. we are elect but they seek evil.

    .........and some people choose to ignore plain Scripture such as Rom.5:12.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    I am not arguing that sinless beings need to get a sinful nature to be enabled to sin. As you point out unfallen sinless beings may simply choose to sin.

    My argument is that Paul constantly tells the NT church to "follow my example" and avoid those leaders who do NOT follow the life example of Paul. (see Phil 3 and 1Thess 1).

    My argument is that for Paul to say that "No one seeks after God NOT even ONE" and for Him to argue that ALL FLESH is accountable and condemned by the Law of God (still in the NT - hint hint) and for him to argue that "EVERY MOUTH IS SHUT" (even in the NT hint hint) when it comes to the Law of God - he is including himself and must be referring to the sinnful fallen nature at least to some degree.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. bmerr

    bmerr
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    Bob,

    bmerr here. The points you listed are in fact all made by Paul. However, I do not believe that the fact that all have sinned neccessitates a sinful nature.

    I've been thinking about this for a while now, so let me run this by you, and tell me what you think.

    Calvinism teaches the doctrine of Total Hereditary Depravity. But since God is the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9; Ecc 12:7), it would seem contrary to His nature to give humans spirits tainted with sin.

    An argument I have heard used to support this teaching (THD) goes like, "No one has to teach a child to lie, or be selfish, so this behavior must come from the sinful nature."

    It's a compelling argument, because anyone who has spent much time around children can tell you that they often do such things without ever having been told how. But the idea that God gives children spirits stained with sin is simply abhorrent to me, since it seems to blame God for the sins committed by man.

    So how can the Nature of God be reconciled with the often bad behavior of little children? Here's what I've come up with.

    Adam and Eve knew two things: what God had commanded, and what they wanted. They certainly had no sinful nature, and yet they sinned by choosing what they wanted instead of what God had commanded.

    Children, on the other hand, only know one thing: what they want. The knowledge one has is all one has to make decisions by. When a child is selfish, he does not know that God has commanded us to care for the desires of others. He just knows that he wants the toy truck, and he doesn't care that another chlid is playing with it, so he takes it.

    Is this behavior sinful? Yes, it is. But it is not imputed to the child as sin, because the child is without the knowledge of the law, and "...sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Rom 5:13b).

    Paul later (Rom 7:9) speaks of when he was a child and says, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

    Someone referred to Rom 5:12 earlier, apparently making the point that men are born sinners because of Adam's sin. But look at the text. What was passed to all men? Sin? No, not sin, but death. We do not inherit dead, sinful spirits from Adam, but dying bodies.

    Time to get ready for evening service. Talk to you soon.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Now here is a fine example of one that is not afraid to use their intellect in spite of the so-called orthodox views of most denominations.

    Indeed we do inherit a fallen nature, but the word nature speaks directly to the physical. We are born physically depraved with a proclivity to sin, but sin is not formulated in the physical, and is not passed on by the physical, for sin is an act of the will. The ‘soul’ that sinneth, it shall surely die. The physical serves as a proclivity, or a formidable influence to sin, but sin is again, an act of the will. Sin is a willlful transgression of a known commandment of God.

    We inherit physical depravity from Adam as his offspring, but God holds everyman accountable for their own sins and not that of another.
     
  19. bmerr

    bmerr
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    HP,

    bmerr here. Am I hallucinating, or did you agree with me?

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    bmerr here. Am I hallucinating, or did you agree with me?

    HP: From what I read I agree with you. You know that might make you somewhat of a strange duck. :)
     

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