1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Question About Cals/Non Cals

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Arbo, Mar 4, 2012.

Top Posters
Page 3 of 8
  1. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    Define "saved". Make sure you incorporate into your definition all the biblical tenets involved.
     
    #41 glfredrick, Mar 5, 2012
  2. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    Non Calvinist are saved. The last time I checked, the Bible doesn't teach that one has to hold to Calvinistic doctrine in order to be saved.
     
    #42 jbh28, Mar 5, 2012
  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    I'm not sure how it would nullify irresistible grace nor limited atonement. First of all, many people will "deny him" and be saved later. Second, limited atonement does affirm that the atonement is sufficient for all.
     
    #43 jbh28, Mar 5, 2012
  4. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    4.765434554433 points. :D
     
    #44 jbh28, Mar 5, 2012
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,415
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What if you need extra credit. :tear:
     
    #45 JonC, Mar 5, 2012
  6. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2

    If you read Calvin's book, Institutes of the Christian Religion, You can receive one extra credit point. Planting a tulip in an Arminian's yard is worth a half a point.
     
    #46 jbh28, Mar 5, 2012
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,415
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    :applause:
     
    #47 JonC, Mar 5, 2012
  8. mandym

    mandym New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is a clear question. If you are not a Calvinist are you saved? I asked an unnuanced question and I want the same type of response from him.
     
    #48 mandym, Mar 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2012
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Jesus has bought the rights to all flesh at the cross....jn 17 1-3.....all flesh is His...ex19 1pet2....
     
    #49 Iconoclast, Mar 5, 2012
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Mandy....a person can be saved by believing the gospel, that the blood of Jesus covers a believing sinners sin. They might not fully know much theology proper....{the saved thief on the cross, or a death bed conversion}

    A person can be saved and confused about many things...doctrinally.

    When a person openly opposes truth.....that is a warning to the church to be careful, to be on guard;
    26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

    27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

    28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

    30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

    31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears
     
    #50 Iconoclast, Mar 5, 2012
  11. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    Define saved...
     
    #51 glfredrick, Mar 5, 2012
  12. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    At just what time does God ever remove the freedom to choose from His sentient beings? Does God change His character and become something He is not? No.
     
    #52 Michael Wrenn, Mar 5, 2012
  13. mandym

    mandym New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    As in disagrees with calvinism
     
    #53 mandym, Mar 5, 2012
  14. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    You have yet to actually prove that we HAVE that sort of libertarian freedom.

    The Bible actually says that we are all slaves -- either to sin or to righteousness -- no one is exempt.
     
    #54 glfredrick, Mar 5, 2012
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is a Person Who saves, not a doctrine. It is faith in a Person by which one enters into covenant with God, not by one's faultlessly accurate notions of Him. (Who could be saved?)

    When I say one doctrine is the Gospel, and the other is not, it drives home the point that one doctrine is true, and the other is not. The Gospel contains no falsehood. One or the other isn't about simply seeing Christ from two different points of view, as one may bring a dove and another a bullock for the Burnt Offering. The disparity is that one describes a lamb, and the other, from a distance through the fog, is thinking he is seeing a dog. Yet they are looking at the same Person, and have placed their faith in that Person.
     
    #55 Aaron, Mar 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2012
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,415
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think that the problem when one states that a particular theological view is the gospel and another is not is that it implies that the other is not saved, and it also implies that one’s own understanding is equal to the Word of God. We can’t assume that Beza was more a Christian than Calvin; or Calvin more than Luther, or Wesley more than Whitefield. None of these Christians actually agreed on all points of theology, so one at most could be right (probably all are wrong in some aspect).

    I may understand my theological perspective to be the gospel because that is what I understand to be the correct position, but it is an error to present it as the gospel to someone who may hold a different understanding (even if I believe them to be theologically wrong) because my understanding is not actually the gospel. Put it this way, I hold a reformed belief, but if I say that this is the gospel and my understanding is not as perfect as the Word of God, then I have altered Scripture.

    Spurgeon is a good example. He stated that he understood Calvinism to be the gospel. But then, in the same sermon, he stated that “gospel” to be incomplete. It actually incorporated what he called other “directions.” If he left it as “Calvinism is the gospel” then he left an incomplete gospel - it would be another gospel altogether. Thankfully (since he is one of my favorites) he went on to explain his understanding, the potential for error, and other aspects that are equally true but that reside outside of Calvinism.

    My personal view is that neither Calvinism or Arminianism is the gospel, but they are understandings of the gospel as stated in Scripture. The gospel is of Christ, not theological positions within which the gospel is understood. Man can and do err, but there is no error in the gospel.
     
    #56 JonC, Mar 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2012
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,415
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Aaron,
    Thanks for the clarification. I do agree with your soteriology, but was concerned about the statement because I realize that my understanding is precisely that - a human understanding of divne revelation.
     
    #57 JonC, Mar 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2012
  18. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
    #58 quantumfaith, Mar 5, 2012
  19. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    An excellent post!
     
    #59 Michael Wrenn, Mar 6, 2012
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you, but I'm not leaving the door open for the legitimization of noncalvinistic thought. I'm simply extolling the glory of Christ and His power, when I say it is a Person Who saves, and not my idea of that Person. If what I say about Christ and His work is true, then it is the Gospel. If what I say about Christ and His work is not true, then it is not the Gospel.

    Calvinism is true. It is, therefore, the Gospel. Anything else is not.
     
    #60 Aaron, Mar 6, 2012
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 8
Loading...