Question about Evolution

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by servant4him, Jun 17, 2003.

  1. servant4him

    servant4him
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    I have a question about Evolution.
    Do you believe that evolution is cross breeding or just adaptation to surroundings? Both may be possible, but I believe that if they are, they are God's works.
    Also, wouldn't people believing in Evolution be people who believe in Scientology?
     
  2. UTEOTW

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    Not an expert, but you might say some of both. In every generation there are some mutations. Some are harmful, some are neutral, and a few are beneficial. Pressure from the surroundings tends to eliminate the harmful are spread the beneficial. But I am not really the one to ask. Others can describe more accurately and eloquently than I can.

    You might make a good theistic evolutionist. ;)

    No. A diverse cross section accepts evolution.

    Welcome to the fray!
     
  3. servant4him

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    I dont really believe in evolution, but if it happened to be real, it would be God's works in my belief. You see, I plan on becoming a minister, a Lutheran minister. Our denomination does not believe in Evolution but Creation. But God has supreme power, so he could have made evolution. Personally I don't think there is enough proof for evolution. For example, what makes people think we evolved from monkeys? Monkeys are hairy, have no speech, and have tails.
    The only thing that evolution could have changed is hair and tails. Evolution couldn't have made a voice box in a hairless, tailess monkey.
    That is what I believe, so therefore I am neither a theistic evolutionist nor a true evolution believer.
     
  4. Paul of Eugene

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    Well, cross breeding is a vague term. If you mean two different species getting together and having a crossbreed baby, well, that might happen once in a while, but it is not usually thought of in terms of evolutionary theory. But if you mean that breeding occurs among members of the same species that have variation between them - well sure, that's an important part of evolution. Selection pressures are also a part of evolution theory, but there has to be something to account for the variations that selection has to work with, so that brings in - mutations!

    And then there is the fact that VIRUSES can actually insert whole genes into a species from another species once in a while.

    And don't forget - there are monkeys WITH tails and apes WITHOUT tails. Also, even us "hairless" humans REALLY have fine hair all over - honest, just take a look with a magnifying glass.
     
  5. UTEOTW

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    If this is honest, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, then you at least seem to have an open mind and understand that there is the possibility that God could have worked through evolution to bring us the wonderful world which we have. As long as you are willing to weigh the evidence you have a good shot at coming to the correct conclusion. Lots of denomination have lots of different beliefs on a wide range of subjects. They cannot all be correct.


    As Paul pointed out, look closely and you will see that you are in fact covered in hair. An evolutionist might point out that we have a better developed cooling system using more sweat glands than other apes and that a lot of hair interferes with that process. So as we gained more sweat glands for cooling we lost hair to make it more efficient. Do you see how two small changes can then come together through sexual reproduction and give the offspring a greater advantage?

    When speaking of tails, remember that apes are a division within primates. The primates with tails (and other characteristics) are monkeys. Apes do not have tails. And you are an ape. Apes, including humans, still have some of the structure for a tail under the skin. You have heard of your tail bone, the coccyx? Occasionally, babies will even be bone with true tails with cartilage and muscle and nerves and all. See the abstract below.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6373560&dopt=Abstract

    Primates also have a larynx. Recent genetic testing has shown a change in only two amino acid base pairs in a gene called FOXP2 from the version in other apes allow for the differences in the lips, tongue, and mouth that allow for speech. The research started when it was noticed that people who have bad copy of this gene have facial structures that make speech much more difficult and they also have a harder time understanding speech. Such a small change. Evolution usually works by making small changes to existing structures.

    http://www.signaling-gateway.org/update/updates/200210/nrg913.html

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=12192408&dopt=Citation
     
  6. servant4him

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    This is the final reason that evolution isn't neccesarily real.

    Scientists have been studying evolution a long, long time. How come nothing has been officialized. Nothing has been stated to be true. One scientist hasn't come out and said: "It's true! I have solid proof of evolution!"
    neither has a team of scientists come out and say this. You'd think that professional scientists would be able to find it, simply. Maybe the truth about evolution isn't meant to be known.
     
  7. Meatros

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    Proofs are for math, not science. There is no 'proof' of gravity, but no one questions that it works. Evolution has been repeatedly demonstrated to be true, real scientists actually no longer question whether or not evolution is in action. What exactly are you expecting?

    I'm not exactly sure I know what you are asking. Scientists are no longer arguing about whether or not evolution happens, the only people who are arguing against evolution are people with religious agendas (for the most part). There isn't a single scientifically peer reviewed journal that refutes evolution.

    Sure there are people who disagree with evolution, again primarily for religious reasons, that doesn't mean that they have evidence against evolution.
     
  8. A_Christian

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    The "wonderful world" we have is supposed to be
    in worse shape than when GOD created it and not
    progressing, improving, moving up the ladder.
    This is where theistic evolution totally falls
    flat on its fat.... :eek:
     
  9. servant4him

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    Good point A_Christian.
    I totally agree.
    The only we could make this world any better is if all people began to believe in Christ, but then we'd still be sinners, so it still couldn't make it like the world given to Adam and Eve.
     
  10. Meatros

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    S-T-R-A-W-M-A-N

    Why are we in "worse" shape? How does the "wonderful world" effect evolution?

    It doesn't.

    AND

    Um...evolution doesn't exclude a belief in Christ. In fact the *majority* of Christians actually accept evolution.
     
  11. servant4him

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    You ask how we are in worse shape? That is the easiest question I've ever had to answer. Because we sin. We have orignal sin passed on to us by Adam and Eve, the original sinners. Sin is what ruined our world. Temptation, greed, herecy, prostitution, blasphemers, murder, and adultry. That is what ruined our world. WE ruined our world, because WE fell into tempation. WE stray from God. Because WE make up blaspheming excuses for straying from God. The answer to how the world got in worse shape is US.
     
  12. Meatros

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    So you believe the world is "ruined"?

    How does this relate to evolution?
     
  13. The Galatian

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  14. The Galatian

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  15. UTEOTW

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    If you were, today, to drive down to the nearest University, walk into the biology department, and start asking around, I would imagine that you would be hard pressed to find a scientist who did not agree that evolution is true. Scientists do say that it is true and the evidence is solid. Your claim is not substantiated. I kindly corrected the idea that other apes do not have a larynx. Your statement above is at best a misunderstanding of the science or a misrepresentation.

    As Meatros has already pointed out, the formal proof you want is not to be found in science. But, those scientist who have studied the available are no longer in doubt about the truth of evolution. The work now is understanding how it happened and what benfit we can obtain today from understanding evolution, especially in the medical field.

    Gravity is an excellent analogue. You toss a ball up, it comes down. The Law of Gravity. But no one knows how it works. There is a lot of work trying to understand the Theory of Gravity. Same thing. There is no doubt in the minds of scientists about whether evolution happened. It is settled. The work now is on the theory of evolution: how it happened, what is related to what, etc.
     
  16. UTEOTW

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    I'm sorry you do not like what God gave you. I think that this is a marvelous place to live. I wonder at the beauty around me and at the opportunity to live here. Does sin worsen the human condition? Of course! But hey, When I was standing on top of Fred's Mountain a few months ago looking east towards Grand Teton only a handful of miles away, it took my breath away.
     
  17. aefting

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    According to this ABC News Link, the majority of Americans believe in YEC, per a 1997 Gallup Poll.

    Edit -- Whoops, read the poll wrong. 44% of Americans believe in YEC. Still, given that figure, how do you get the majority of Christians believing in evolution?


    Andy

    [ June 18, 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: aefting ]
     
  18. servant4him

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    Yes, I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran.
    How can evolution be real when in the bible it says this:
    "So God created man in his own image,
    in the image of God he created him;
    male and female he created them."

    God created man from the start. He didn't make the apes to turn into men.
    If evolution is true, then the Bible lies, and I know the Bible isn't lying.
     
  19. servant4him

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    "I'm sorry you do not like what God gave you. I think that this is a marvelous place to live. I wonder at the beauty around me and at the opportunity to live here. Does sin worsen the human condition? Of course! But hey, When I was standing on top of Fred's Mountain a few months ago looking east towards Grand Teton only a handful of miles away, it took my breath away."

    God gave us a perfect world. WE ruined it. I said this earlier. Satan tempted us to eat from the tree of good and evil. Eve fell for it, and ate of the wretched fruit. Adam followed right behind her and ate of it also. Therefor they disobeyed God, and by doing this they created original sin.
    God did give us a wonderful place to live. Heaven.
    Earth would have been perfect also had Adam and Eve not sinned. We caused our world to not be perfect. WE still make it unperfect.
     
  20. UTEOTW

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    Did you look at the poll?

    A majority is greater than 50%. YEC did not get 50%. It is not even a plurality. 44% say YEC and 49% say evolution.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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