Question about gays

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by RightFromWrong, Aug 7, 2005.

  1. RightFromWrong

    RightFromWrong
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Funny this subject came up several times today. Once while listening to Rush Limbah ( however you spell his name ) me and my spouse talked about it, then while listening to Larry King Live who had several Evangelical Pastors on his show and the topic was mainly right to life. Then my stepdaughter called and complained that she had a discussion with a gay neighbor and also that Starbucks was putting bad sayings on their coffee cups ( more about that latter )
    Anyway, the questions is this.

    Are gays born that way or do they have a choice ?

    I somewhat disagreed with Rush who said they had a choice, but I agreed with one of the Pastors that while yes we all have choices to sin, many of us have a BENT towards certain sins making it harder than it would be for someone else.
    That was the exact point I was making to my spouse while listening to Rush.

    I find it hard to believe anyone in their right mind would CHOOSE to be gay. I believe having feelings of being gay isn't a sin it is when one acts on those feelings does it become sin.

    What are all your thought on this ?
     
  2. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    One point is that if people were actually born gay as such, then they would be created in the image of God as gay people. If that is true that say people are genetically Homosexual, then that would cause a number of problems for the explanation of how that can be so from scripture.

    I think that the Hetero and the Gay community both want a conclusive answer on whether it is genetic or not, but it would seem to me that it is not clear as to whether that is the case or not?
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not really Ben. We know that the human body and its genetic structure has been affected by sin. It is not hard to imagine that a bent towards homosexuality is part of that. The image of God has been marred by sin.

    I don't think it matters. Here is what we know for sure. Sexual choices are a choice. When a man has sexual relations with another man, it is a choice. When a man has sexual relations with a woman, it is a choice. There may be a "bent" towards one kind or the other, but the actions and thoughts are choices we make. No one is forced to have sex with anyone (apart from rape). We need not, even cannot give up the "choice issue."

    Some would object that if there is a homosexual genetic bent, forbidding them to act on it is cruel or mean, or doesn't allow them to be who they are. But that is true with all of us in all areas. We are sinners by nature. God calls us to holiness, thus calling us to deny what we are born with ... an innate sin nature.

    As for someone in their right mind choosing to be gay, sin never leaves us in our right mind. People who make that choice have decided that the sexual gratification is more important than social acceptance. And that is a choice they make. It is about what they worship, and they worship sexual gratification, just like the man who commits adultery with another woman (or woman with a man), the person who is on drugs, or gets drunk ... These are choices about worship.
     
  4. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    God is NOT the author of confusion...EVER.Satan is. Since according to the Word of God we are created in the image of God,that meaning that we are created as a living soul,body and spirit in the likeness of God(although the scripture declares that God is Spirit,the Lord Jesus Christ,God in the flesh,has a bodily likeness just as we do),we,unlike the other living things in God's creation were created with the ability to reason and make choices between right and wrong.God declares homosexuality to be an abominable sin...nothing more...and certainly nothing less.Men and women make the choices to either sin...or not.Satan provides the temptation and men either respond to it by giving in to it in the weakness of their flesh and its FALLEN nature,or break free of it by the power of the risen Christ after being Born Again by the Spirit of God.I do agree that there are certain pre-dispositions that may make a person more prone to giving in to certain temptations such as homosexuality,adultery,alcoholism,drug use,tobacco and others....but Christ offers forgiveness and hope for the slaves to sin.We sin by nature(due to the fall) and by choice.Homosexuality is NOT genetic....it is just another way that satan can deceive our dark and fallen nature.Jesus Christ is the answer...and His way is the path of LIGHT and HOPE out of darkness.

    Greg Sr.
     
  5. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    If homosexuality is caused by genetics, couldnt one say the same thing about pedophilia, bestiality, and other perversions of God's natural order?
     
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think first off we need to define the idea, "Image of God". God is neither male nor female, but Spirit.

    Personally, I think all people develop and are influenced by their upbringing. I don't know what would spark homosexual tendencies. The only researcher I have read about is himself homosexual. His findings leaned toward a genetic base, but admittedly were not totally conclusive.

    I have personal reasons why I would like to know definitively. I have a brother who is gay; a local doctor who is lesbian; and a number of friends who are gay.

    My brother had the same upbringing as myself. The doctor's parents were Baptist missionaries in South America and she was raised on the mission field.

    There are some in the so-called gay community who just try to live their lives in society and do not flaunt their gayness. My brother does not practice his homosexuality, but the doctor does. My brother is not treated differently by our family, whilst the doctor was totally rejected by her parents, but found acceptance in our village as a person.

    The Greek society was rampant with homosexuality during the years the New Testament was written, and during the life of Christ, but is amazingly quiet on the topic. One would think Paul would have had more to say on the subject given the profane history.

    I try to treat the people humanely and with dignity and welcome them to faith in Christ without judgement. They know that I oppose homosexuality, but accept them, and we remain good friends.

    If someone has the absolute answer and not just using a lot of the usual rhetoric about it, I would like to see it.

    Good topic IF it can remain civil and productive.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    Brother Larry!! You give one of the BEST explainations I have ever heard on this subject! God bless your heart, Brother---and I mean that from the bottom of mine!!

    Brother David
     
  8. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen Blackbird...I agree...thank you Bro.Larry for that balanced and thoughtful response.As Christians we should prayerfully show compassion towards these men and women who have been bogged down in the mire of sin remembering ourselves lest we also be tempted.We may be saved...but we still possess this vile flesh nature and its "bent" towards sin....until the Lord calls us away to be with Him..."even so,come Lord Jesus."

    Greg Sr.
     
  9. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,574
    Likes Received:
    10
    I believe it can be an inborn predisposition, but that it's some sorta birth defect as is, say, Down's Syndrome. Unlike Down's, however, HS can be overcome if a person really wants to, but there's no guarantee that person will ever be hetero.

    For the Christian, it can remain as a "thorn", same as being born without the use of the legs. Now, while a HS may always have an eye for the same gender, he/she can CONTROL it, same as the hetero is expected to control his/her libido.

    I do NOT believe an ACTIVE HS can really be a Christian, since HS is clearly an abomination before God, but any HS may repent and be saved, just as WE were from OUR sins. Not everyone has committed the same sins, but there's just one JUSUS CHRIST who can forgive'em all.

    Just as more than one physically-disabled Christian must live in a wheelchair, more than one must live with a libido that cannot be satisfied without sinning.
     
  10. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    44,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent post Pastor Larry!

    Sadly, social acceptance, tolerance, and even the embracing of homosexuality is becoming more rampant everyday and it is being forced upon all of us. :(
     
  11. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Well I refuse to be politically correct. If God says it's wrong.... IT'S WRONG!
     
  12. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    44,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Diane, I don't think anyone here said it was RIGHT.

    That doesn't mean we should shun people in this situation or condemn them.

    Remember, God loves THEM just as much as He loves YOU...

    If sinners (no matter what the sin) can't see the love of Christ in you - why would they want what you have?
     
  13. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,836
    Likes Received:
    115
    Bear with me....please...

    To discuss this, one has to first of all acknowledge that human beings are sexually-minded creatures. Our bodies were designed for sex and we were created with a desire for sexual relations. God ordained marriage and ordained the proper outlet for sex.

    But sometimes, on the BaptistBoard as well as other Christian arenas, it seems that no one wants to admit that anyone except heterosexual married people even have a desire for sex.

    We all have a desire for sexual relations. Handicapped people, single people, married people, divorced people, young people, old people, nuns, monks, presidents, and the homeless.

    And because of our hormonal make-up and the design of our bodies for procreation, human beings "discover themselves" many times at a very early age.

    We know that certain things are stimulating to our minds and bodies. Children know this at an early age. We all knew.

    Satan knows it too. That's why he attacks people at a young age. Homosexuals do not wake up one day when they are 35 and say, "Hey, I think that I will give this gay thing a try."

    Homosexuals say all of the time that they knew when they were children that they were gay or "different" or trapped in the wrong gender or attracted to the same sex.

    In the past 22 years, I have seen children (about 7) in the public school system that have shown homosexual tendencies as early as 1st grade. What does a child that young know about sex. Nothing. But Satan attacks him anyway...early...in preparation for later years. And Satan can do that because we are sexual creatures at an early age. I don't mean having sex at an early age, but we are physically aware of pleasing sensations at an early age.

    Satan knows that we are spiritual beings inhabiting a physical body. Physical bodies that feel pain, heat, cold, sexual arousal, texture, hunger, and pleasure.

    We incorrectly focus our attention on our physcial natures most of the time. The shell that encapsulates the soul has become more important than the soul itself.

    Satan knows this, too.

    It's the choice of homosexuality that is the sin. Allowing the enticement of the flesh to overcome the common sense of the mind and the call of the spirit is where the sin lies.

    And it's not just homosexuality that is sinful.

    There are over 12,000 people registered on the BaptistBoard. How many of them do you think have struggled with homosexuality? Probably a small percentage.

    But how many of them do you believe have struggled with any of the following?

    ~pornography (in ANY form)
    ~self-gratification
    ~adultry (even in the mind)
    ~fornication (even in the mind)

    How many? I daresay a large percentage.

    Sex is a gift from God to the married heterosexual couple.

    Satan has twisted and perverted the gift and offered it to us in a vile and ugly manner, but dressed in a beautiful package.

    And we have accepted it.

    Therein lies the sin.

    It's not enough to say, it's a sin. Yes, it is a sin. But how can we reach out to the homosexual? And how can we address the sin without addressing some of the underlying issues that promote it?

    Peace-
    Scarlett O.
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  14. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    44,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly Scarlett!

    We spend too much time fighting the physical when the battle is spiritual...

    Many of us turn our backs on the homosexual without realizing that spiritual reasons are behind the choice.

    That's why it is so important to pray a spiritual hedge of protection around our children.

    Satan wants our children so he plants a seed in childhood and waters it later in life. I doubt very much if most homosexuals even realize this.
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    God is spirit but clearly makes it known he wants to be called Father. I think that possibly maleness and femaleness go beyond gender, and so God may not have gender, but he may have maleness. I don't think of him as neutral or as androgynous but in male terms because of how he has revealed himself to us.

    I agree with treating all people humanely.

    I am trying to understand you in this statement -- are you saying that after a HS person comes to faith in Christ, it's okay if they keep practicing homosexuality? Or are you saying something else?

    There are some well-known Christians who are okay with practicing HS who claim to be Christian.
     
  16. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marcia,

    On God, I believe the term "father" was used because the people who recorded the Bible were essentially paternalistic, and those are the only terms we would understand regarding our relationship to God.

    On the converted person who also happens to be locked into homosexuality, I think there are greater evils that destroy the soul. For example, my brother is homosexual, but does not practice. Is it ok that he is homosexual? I would be more concerned if he took up drinking alcohol.

    The doctor made a profession of faith and has a great testimony, but has a mate and lives quietly, not flaunting her homosexuality. Her parents, Baptist missionaries, disowned her. I cannot do that.

    On the Old Testament stories such as Lot, Sodom and Gomorrah, I believe sodomy was only one of the sins. The most grievous sin was the rejection of the word of the Lord in His servant Abraham.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    PS. I am not saying that homosexuality is ok in my mind.
     
  17. shannonL

    shannonL
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    686
    Likes Received:
    0
    It doesn't matter whose mind its okay in. The Bible says its sin. Your doctor friend made a profession and is living a blatently, sinful lifestyle. Have you shared with your doctor friend from Scripture how she is living in sin?
    I believe the HS lifestyle is against Scripture. I went to seminary with a man who was a converted HS. He is convinced whole heartily that his lifestyle was a choice. He is now married with a son.
    The doctor has made a profession of faith and has a great testimony? What part of her testimony is so great? Is it the part where she justifies living in sin?
    What is your philosophy? "Live and let live"?
    I suppose according to your "in my mind" thinking that the doctor can have a perfectly normal christian life and be a practicing HS as long as its cool between her and God "in her own mind"
    **Personal attack removed**At least she has the courage to do what she thinks is right in her own mind. (As wrong as that is)
    You on the other hand want to please everybody.
    **edited**You haven't given up on everything just yet. You probably hold to a couple of the fundamentals but your on your way out of the liberal theologian/preacher closet.
    **personal attack removed**That is how it got passed to start with.
    To many wimpy preachers in the pulpit not taking a stand on the Word of God.

    [ August 08, 2005, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
  18. TexasSky

    TexasSky
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Homosexuality, especially male homosexuality, has always been a health risk. Long before AIDS was discovered, it was a health risk in that it risks tissue tears, and it risks introducing fecal matter into the blood. SO the act, is definately not something that is natural.

    As to the urge - Christians always have urges that are unwise, from both spiritual and physical ways. A desire for drugs or alochol doesn't make it wise, right, or natural. A nymphomaniac's desire for multiple sex partners isn't "natural" or "right" either.

    As someone else pointed out, any sexual fetish could make the claim homosexuality makes.

    Anything which allows the flesh to control the brain, and then is used as an excuse for giving into the flesh is wrong.
     
  19. SeekingTruth

    SeekingTruth
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don't understand the point of this discussion. God has termed homosexuality as an abomination. There is no way we can talk around this. Liberals, moderates, and conservatives cannot change His word. We may try to rationalize our way into if not approving homosexuality, at least accommodating it. Homosexuality was rampamt in the Greek culture, and became so in the Roman culture. Paul, contrary to what has been posted in this thread, had a great deal to say on the subject. Havew you not read Romans?
    Rom 1:21-32 (KJV)
    (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    (23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
    (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
    (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    (31) Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Seems pretty clear to me. Paul, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, condemned the practice of homosexuality. He did not mince words on the subject. So, we see that in all ages in the Bible, God condemns this act as evil.

    Why do we try to change His Word to something it is not. I don't believe we should hate the homosexual, but I do believe we, as Christians, should be unafraid to speak out against homosexuality.
     
  20. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,836
    Likes Received:
    115
    No one here is speaking for homosexuality.

    The original intent of the discussion was NOT is homosexuality sinful, but how much of role does choice play and how much of a role does a nature play.

    In other words, when making a choice to be homosexual, what underlying factors lead some people to that choice that we as Christians should look at.

    We have two separate conversations going on here.

    1. Those who are claiming that it is sinful.
    2. And those who are claiming that it is sinful, yet are wanting to debate nature vs. nurture to some degree and get a closer look at how the temptation plays a role in their lives.

    Peace-
    Scarlett O.
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     

Share This Page

Loading...