question about God's "preserved" Word

Based upon the original Hebrew, reading the
words just as they are written, without added
knowledge, who killed Goliath?

Daffney, when we come to such open forums
as this one, we open ourselves up for scrutiny
and criticism. This is one of the prices for learn-
ing on such a forum, and it is a very low price to
pay, if our egos, our pride, can take it.

[ October 25, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

Daffney, since you and other KJVO types don't get it, let me put it in proper perspective. You do not really believe that God preserved his word. You believe the KJV is it and anything that departs from the KJV is wrong. God did NOT write the KJV. Therefore, it is not the final authority by which everything is to be judged. Does this make sense?

If God preserved his word the way you are implying, where are the original, apostle authored manuscripts? What, you mean to tell me that the God who spoke the world into existence and who is the author of salvation was not able to preserve the bible?

Let us move on to the argument that God foresaw the english language being primary. That is a great argument. Okay now, since the KJV is different from the Geneva, Bishops, Great, and other pre-1611 translations, why did God not preserve those? What, you mean to tell me that the God who spoke the world into existence and who is the author of salvation was not able to preserve the bible?

This is all just so tiring. Now I know why I only visit this site once in a great while.

You cannot have any integrity and attack the NKJV and any other literal translations if you won't answer the above questions. Stop with the age-old drivel about how we question the power of God and blah, blah, blah. Give me just one doctrine that I call into question. Give me a passage that I prostitute into whatever my fancy is. I can take the charge. Further, why don't you KJVO types provide this list of passages that promise the preservation of the KJV but not the originals and not any pre-1611 translations. Since you can't do it, why not face the facts and drop the sensationalism and stop with your baseless accusations toward those who really do uphold the integrity of Scripture.

Out unlike illogical conclusions in the KJVO camp.

 

Homebound, once again, you start with the assumption that the KJV is God's perfect word. Therefore, you notice when something is different and call it wrong, evil, bad, or whatever. I know because I was once there.

It is possible that the Ecclectic Text is the original is totally correct and the KJV adds to God's word. Now, you cannot logically prove what you have already determined is truth.

Why, why, why, this is just so sad that people question God's Word.

 

Henry Morris - founder of Institute for creation Research is one of several that I refered to recently.
He was a member of the American Overview Committee for the NKJV. He states a number of reasons why he leans toward the KJV in his "A Creationists Defense of the KJV".

1. God is not the Author of confusion. a. Unison reading is impossible. b. people quit bringing their Bibles. (Which I personally experienced. People here, chose to listen to me read, rather than try to follow along in a different Bible)

2. On page 7, he brings in to question the integrity of so many publishers who keep producing so many new improved renderings.

3. Pg. 13, "almost all modern english translations rely heavily on hebrew and greek manuscripts of the Bible developed by liberals, rationalists, and evolutionists, none of whom believed in the verbal inspiration of the Bible.

4. Pg. 13, "the common people today especially those without higher education still love and use it (refering to the KJV). It is usually the higher "intelligentsia" who tend to favor the modern versions. (That also was true here. A man who did not graduate high school said he had no problem with the KJV, an emergency room Nurse told me she couldn't understand it.)

5. Pg. 13, "The modern versions commonly tend to use long words and pedantic rhetoric, but the KJV uses mostly one and two syllable words."

6. Pg. 14, Many sections can easily be read by children as soon as they learn to read at all. In fact, in earlier times here in America, children were actually taught to read by means of the KJV.

7. Pg. 16, "thee, thou, and thine, were used to express the second person singular; with you, ye, and yours reserved for second person plural. Today we use "you" for both singular and plural, thereby missing some of the precise meanings of many texts of Scripture. The same applies to the "th" and "st" endings on verbs associated with second person pronouns.

I personally find all of this interesting coming from one who was involved in the committee for the NKJV.

 

Hi,

I'm not Daffney, but I'll try some answers to the questions anyway!

Ah - typical fallacy. God preserved his words, not paper and ink!!! The Bible is not limited to the originals! The originals are not the only things that were inspired! Take a look at 2 Tim 3:16 (the verse about inspiration) - it is not talking about originals! It is talking about preserved manuscripts written hundreds of years after the originals perished!

Because they were not completely perfect - although they were used by God to prepare the way for the completley perfect AV. Why did God do this? Who knows! But then there's loads of things God does that we don't know the reasons for.

Good question. Strange, though, how the MVOs (or whatever you want to be called) don't answer the same question of their own position? I mean, where does the Bible say God would preserve his word in a multitude of errent copies, which you just had to search for yourself and decide which words were the Bible and which weren't? Where does the Bible say God would preserve the originals? Where does it say he'd preserve it in 21st century coloquial English? Where, where, where??? Ah, so it appears that God didn't tell us precisely how he'd preserve his word. So the MVOs can stop asking for verses proving it's in the AV until they can find verses proving it's wherever they think it is (if they think it's anywhere at all)...

Your friend and brother,

Bartholomew

 

Although I haven't been here long, I'm starting to come to the same opinion. It's more than a bit sad that Christians who would normally be united in asserting the authority, infallibility, and inspiration of the Bible are divided by this controversy. We spend far too much energy fighting each other when we should be combatting our true enemies. Why does the controversy even exist? I don't know of anyone who wants to ban the KJV, and I don't know of anyone who has slipped into apostasy by reading the NKJV, NIV or NASB. Moreover, in the past century or so multitudes of people (both English and non-English speakers) have been saved without any contact with the KJV. So, if people can be saved (and grow to maturity) by hearing or reading other translations, how necessary is the KJV (or any particular version)? As has been shown over and over, the MVs contain the same doctrines as the KJV. We are not being deprived of any truths by using the MVs, and the assertion that the KJV is more honoring to God is obviously a subjective one. Why can't we accept that the KJV is simply one of many tools believers can use to spread the gospel and teach the truth about God?

 

Yeah, whatever. I'll bet your friend did all the work.

 

Sorry, double post.

[ October 25, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Singleman ]

 

G. Christian Weiss who is a proponent of modern versions wrote "what you should know about Bible translations."
He does as all other users of modern versions do. Attack and insult those who use the KJV.
What I find a little silly is his circular reasoning...and at the same time I see his circular reasoning used yet today (ie. Abiyah's reply - "based on the original Hebrew") and that is found in his booklet, p. 26;
"As with the Old Testament, the original inspired New Testament manuscripts are no longer in existence."

Then on page 86, he explains that the modern versions omit "God" on 14 occassions because the word "God" was not in the original text.

That is circular. To say on one page that "the originals do not exist"....then a few pages later to say the modern versions omit "God" on 14 occassions because it is not in the originals.

Obviously, the originals do not exist. Obviously, things that are different are not the same.
Some choose to believe we will never be able to hold a perfect copy of God's Word in our hand. I choose to believe that we can.

Try as man might to stomp out the Bible (keeping it in Latin, burning people at the stake, burning Bibles, and higher and lower criticism) God has always, will always preserve His perfect Word and keep it available.

Until Christ returns, we have to put up with the silliness of gender neutral, and political correctness attempts of fabricating a Bible.

I shudder when I think of what liberals and publishers will be producing 20 years from now. May God have mercy on our children.

 

Homebound, do you not see the logical problem this creates? If there was a perfect Bible (in the sense that you mean it) before 1611, then either the KJV is wrong for correcting it, or that "perfect" Bible wasn't so perfect because it had to be corrected and replaced by the KJV (and thus the KJV-only understanding of "perfect" is wrong).

I just have, but you have not understood the proof.

 

Why don't you KJVO people just stop attacking others?

 

Singleman --

Some posts are so good, they need to be
posted twice!

8oD

[ October 25, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

Why don't you KJVO people just stop attacking others?</font>[/QUOTE]Shaddup. I'm not KJVO. I'm Geneva Bible only. I'll have nothing to do with these perverse MVs.

 

I see. God hates those who speak Latin. What, you don't speak gothic english. Well, learn english or go to the pit...

I see. God not only preserves the KJV but not the originals or other pre-KJV translations, but now he makes sure they are available. That point has been totally missed by non KJVO-people.

What we should be doing is giving the peoples of the world a KJV. Here is a transaction that would definitely take place:

Missionary to heathen: here is God's word. Learn it and you will know how to get saved.

Heathen:???

Missionary to heathen: take and read it. I don't know if you know the language or not seeing how we cannot even talk to one another.

Heathen:???

Missionary to heathen: well, this is the preserved Word of God that is available to everyone. I for one will not sit by and do nothing when you need the KJV. Here you go.

Heathen:???

Missionary to heathen: I know, we could teach you all english.

Heathen:???

Btw, I am against gender-neutral versions.

Are we done yet...

 

This thread is frightening. I think we need to
make a run on Chill Pills and resort to the study
for prayer and meditation on the Word.

 

I thought it would go without saying, but I guess not. When you compare prices on Bibles, you have to compare the same types. Examples;

Thompson chain KJV to Thompson chain Modern

Life Application KJV to Life App. Modern

Scofield KJV to Scofield Modern

etc.

 

"...and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." {I Corinthians 12:3, NASB}

Who does this verse in the NAS come from? God or the devil?

If it is from the devil, then the devil inspires salvation. If it is from God-- and all translation I know claim the lordship of Christ can only come from the Holy Spirit-- then claiming this translation is "corrupt" is saying the Holy Spirit inspires corruption and is a co-author with the devil.

So which is it?

 

Daffney --

We have given you answers, but you choose
to ignore even friendly ones, given to you in
good faith, and you procede to chide and
belittle. We really aren't terrificaly stupid. 8o)

I was not going to respond to your quip
about checking to see what the Hebrew Scrip-
tures say when there is a question, but because
of this latest post, what, exactly, is wrong with
consulting the original languages to get to the
bottom of an idea or question?

 

Abiyah, don't you get it? God didn't promise to preserve the original. God promised to preserve the KJV.

 

Oh, Preach! Let me just wallow in my ignorance!

8o)