Question about love and free will

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Jan 14, 2007.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    I found a discussion in another forum where an unbeliever asks a few interesting questions. Actually I have thought the very same things, too, and wasn't able to answer them very well. What do you say about these things?
    Some things are really not easy to answer and sometimes I feel as if christians simply have their standard answers to such hard questions. I don't know where these answers come from, maybe an intelligent christian once came up with answers to tough questions and then these answers were taught to all christians and now they simply repeat them but how do we even know that they are correct? What if we simply repeat everything what we were told?
    Anyway, here is the quote. The author basically argues that we have no free will because God is like: "Either you love me and obey me, or you're going to hell."

     
  2. Amy.G

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    This is spoken strictly from a human standpoint of believing the we are good enough to go to heaven. Without Christ we are under condemnation before God because we have broken His laws. We justly deserve to be punished, but God does not want us to be condemned. That's why He gave us a way to heaven and eternal life through the Savior who took our punishment. THIS is what love is. But, we have to accept His gift. People go to hell because they REJECT the gift God wants to give them. The gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ. This is God's love, sacrificial love, not the self centered love that is quoted in your OP.
    :)
     
  3. tragic_pizza

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    I think it was Shirley Guthrie who said that if people really want to go to hell, there should probably be a hell for them to go to.

    I know that's trite, but I honestly believe that God's saving love is offered to all of humanity, and that God calls all of humanity, in one way or another, to reconciliation. If someone rejects that reconciliation, it's on them.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    xdisciplex: //What if we simply repeat everything what we were told? //

    Good question.
    And you gave a good example. That person that said that
    wrong stuff is just blindly repeating everyting he heard/thought.

    You have free will.
    God doesn't want you in hell.
    Any good ideas today on how you might serve
    God better? I know when I was depressed I wasn't
    much use to God. Now that i'm on Bupropion
    (anti-depressant) for the rest of my life,
    I'm out serving the Lord left
    and right (even at home, I'm raising two grandchildren).

    Wikipedia says my anti-depressant:
    //Bupropion is both a dopamine reuptake inhibitor
    and a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor?//
    so it isn't a tricyclic anti-depressant that would
    also (in addition to dopamine & norepinephrine)
    work as a serotonin reuptake inhibitor.

    Is taking a brain enhanser any different than
    taking a lung enhanser (i've got emphysemia)?
    I can't even serve the Lord by singing in the choir :(
     
  5. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
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    Ed, you sing without words, my friend. Your life is a symphony.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    Thank you Bubba T.P. You are much kinder than the last

    guy who compared what I said with RAP DONE WITH
    AN ACCORDIAN :tonofbricks:
     
  7. Amy.G

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    AMEN BROTHER TRAGIC, YOU ARE SO RIGHT ON!:thumbs:

    (my tribute to Ed!:))
     
  8. Allan

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    First God is not just LOVE
    God is also Holy and JUST.

    Gods love is given so that you don't have to be judged on your own merits, which due to sin is death. Even our best righteousness is as a filthy rag - disusting.
    So God IN His great Love provided The Way (Jesus Christ), or better one who CAN take our place to recieve unto Himself the EXACT judgment of God upon our sin. It is for this reason we do not have to worry about the Gods judgment on our sins (damnation) because Jesus took the full punishment for ALL our sins.

    But if a person refuses to accept what Christ did they choose to be judged on their own merits. They reject the Love of God. God who has had His love rejected to purchase their pardon allows them to do so and be judged on their own merits. So when they stand before Him they will be judge with the standard that ALL are judged by - Perfection; Himself Jesus - We as believers are judged according to the righteousness of Christ we hace received of Him to us. Those who reject Him reject that and choose to themselves what they want. Seperation from God.

    Would God be Just to give them what they Don't want?
    They didn't want His Love, His help, nor His being judged in their place.
    God gives them what they desire - a judgment outside of His help and wholy upon them. They by their own works and their own admission at the Great White Throne Judgment they will acknowledge Jesus is Lord to their own damnation.

    God IS Love
    But God IS ALSO Holy and Just. And the rewarder of those who seek Him!
     
  9. Allan

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    >>>Editted in case one might think what was here before was considered a personal attack.<<<

    Read your bible!

    Your ABSURD comment of ONE smart christian coming up with the answer and every since then are basically regergitating it shows your complete lack of knowing anything pertaining to the scriptures.

    Do you even have a home church where you study and grow?? Does everyone there say the same thing like mindless robots. Come on.

    Either you love God and obey His or you are going to Hell is absolutely correct without any equivocation.
     
    #9 Allan, Jan 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2007
  10. tragic_pizza

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    And the personal attacks begin...
     
  11. Allan

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    It is not a personal attack - at least IMO

    If it is construed that way then my appoligies.

    But to make such an inane statement as that which XD stated shows a complete lack of understanding or even discipleship with regard to the BASICS of faith.

    So it either falls on the church where XD is being discipled (if XD goes, and is why I asked) or it falls on XD, NO??
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    "you're talking about love. how is it love when someone kills you for not loving them. have you ever heard the phrase "if you love something, set it free?" it's not, "if you love something, set it free. and when it doesn't love you back, punish it and kill it. torture it for all eternity."


    It is extremely unfortunate that God gets blamed for something that isnt even true. He doesnt punish anyone for all eternity. The Bible does not teach that. One has to do a thorough study to figure that one out though.
     
  13. Allan

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    There punishment IS everlasting and that is consistant throughout scripture.

    The smoke of their torment rises up before the Lord forever. For just one!
     
  14. DQuixote

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    xdisciplex, Sir, we are lost out here on this planet. We're doomed if we don't get off it. God offers us the escape route, the free passage to eternal life in Heaven, wherever that is. That's pure love. Strangely, some turn it down. If you were passenger on an aircraft that was going to crash, and one stepped forward, promising to take control, would you block his access to the cockpit? How difficult is it to accept God's promise of eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord? If that person stepped forward, would you say to him, "Well, I don't know..... I want to consult some of the other passengers..... perhaps they have a solution..... let's see, check out this passenger list..... Confucious, Buddha, Sun yung Moon, Benny Hinn, an expert on Yoga

    BOOM.
     
    #14 DQuixote, Jan 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2007
  15. Claudia_T

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    well thats an entire bible study all its own and I could show you you're wrong but not on this thread..
     
  16. Claudia_T

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    Allan,

    Here is just a little bit for you to read... first you have to realize that the Bible calls the Lake of Fire THE SECOND DEATH, so obviously there's a misunderstanding about eternal torment.


    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.

    What is said of this fire in another place?
    "He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:12.

    NOTE. - The fire is said to be everlasting because it is not "quenched." If fire is quenched after taking hold upon a house, the structure is saved; but if the fire is unquenchable, it does for the house just what the last quoted text says it will do with the chaff (the wicked) namely burn it up. Such a fire is called "everlasting," because it lasts as long as there is anything for it to prey upon, and because its results are everlasting.

    Has everlasting or eternal fire ever been visited upon men in the past?
    "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

    What was the result of this eternal fire upon those cities?

    "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.

    NOTE. - "Everlasting" fire converted these cities into ashes, and the apostle says they were made an ensample to those who should after live ungodly. We cannot for a moment suppose that those cities are now burning; for the saline waters of the Dead Sea rollover the very spot where they stood.

    What will be the final effect of this fire on the wicked?
    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9.

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.

    In this fire will there be torment? and how long will it last?
    "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.

    NOTE. - The Greek term translated in this text "forever and ever," has different meanings; according to the connection in which it is used, such as, duration, finite or infinite; unlimited duration, past or future; time, age, lifetime; the world, universe. Greenfield.

    How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
    "His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.

    NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.
    For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?

    "I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.

    NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."

    How long was Jonah carried in the whale's belly through the depths?
    "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever." Jonah 2:6.
    -Bible Readings for the Home, very old book, no copyright

    remember now, these are just a few of the MANY verses like this.. on the subject of what happens to the wicked
     
    #16 Claudia_T, Jan 14, 2007
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  17. Amy.G

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    Excellent post DQ! :thumbs:
     
  18. Allan

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    Agreed and that misunderstanding comes from and in what you have posted.
    This view you set forth has NEVER been a consistant teaching of the Church from the first till now.
    First off, you have a WRONG understanding of 'unquenchable', period. Unquenchable in the Greek means:
    1) unquenched, unquenchable
    a) of eternal hell fire to punish the damned
    unquenchable 2, never shall quenched

    As a former volenteer firefighter I can attest NO ONE within that department ANYWHERE would say a fire that has burnt a structure to the ground would call it unquenable after the fact. But during the time the fire is raging and nothing can done at that point impedes its consumption THEN it is refered to as being unquechable! To burn something up also does not have the same conotation as being destroy or non-existent.

    Everlasting means just what it says. Does everlasting life mean Life for a brief time and then you are snuffed out of existence?? No, It mean that whatever the subject is in conjuction with 'everlasting' holds that it is to be in a state of perminant existance.

    Second death does not mean to cease to exist when our first death is spiritual seperation from God. But we are given a reprieve if we will believe. If not the second death or absolute eternal seperation is permenant. We are alive and conscience in this first death and so we will be also in the 2nd. (Luk 16 Story of Laz. and Rich man)
    You again fail to heed context for your pre-text.
    Look at verse 6 that speaks of "everlasting chains" that hold the some of the Angels that fell... gives place to the context with regard to what transpired spiritually. THEN it states in verse 7 about Sodom and Gomorra as the example "suffering" (present tense active verb) the vengeance of eternal (that which has no end) fire.
    Those cities that scripture speaks of is in actuality speaking of the PEOPLE of the cities and not the physical cities themselves. And as shown previously they are currently SUFFERING the vengeance of eternal fire.
    NOTE: you are trying to bring together two scriptures that are not dealing with the same things. You are tearing them out of context to fit your pre-text. 2 Peter is about those cities being examples of how a believer should not live and that God destroyed physically the actual cities BUT saved Just Lot. This is not about those cities eternal Judgment but about their physical Judgment wherein Just Lot was brought away from. On is a reference to the Physical Judgment and the other is a reference to their Spiritual Judgment. They ARE NOT one and the same.
    NOTE: Destruction in the Koine or original Greek is the destruction of the flesh NOT spirit. Here (1.) Their punishment will be no less than destruction, not of their being but of that natural life they gloried in; not that of the body alone, but both as to body and soul. (2.) This destruction will be everlasting. They shall be always dying, and yet never die. Their misery will run parallel with the line of eternity. The chains of darkness are everlasting chains, and the fire is everlasting fire. It must needs be so, since the punishment is inflicted by an eternal and Everlasting God, fastening upon an immortal soul, set out of the reach of Gods mercy and grace. (3.) This destruction shall come from the presence of the Lord, that is, immediately from God himself. Here on the earth God punishes sinners by creatures, by instruments; but at that moment He will take the work into His own hands. It will be destruction from the Almighty. (4.) It shall come from the glory of his power. Not only the justice of God, but this almighty power, will be glorified in this Judgment of destruction upon sinners; This is consistant with all the other verses of scripture concerning the eternal condemnation (judgment) received by Sinners. And this fits with Matt 25:46
    Yes, and you just proved my point. Their torment is for an UNLIMITED duration. What is the duration on the Time specified (temporal - our time which is finite and ending or Eternal which has no end and therefore Infinite)? We find that it is in the infinite time line since it is something that comes up before God who dwells in eternity then so the "forever and ever" is in regard to eternity and not the temporal or finite which HAS an end. We know this is also in eternity (without end) since this is going on spiritually and therefore the backdrop is THAT OF eternity.

    Again just as your own quote states that the duration of forever is determinded according to the context or connection in which it is used. Here it is used in the temporal because it relates to the physical world that HAS an end. Eternity has no end.

    Again Forever is determinded according to the connection in which it is used. This is in the temporal or physical plain of existence. Again it has an end, Eternity does not.
    Again Forever is determinded according to the connection in which it is used. This is in the temporal or physical plain of existence. Again it has an end, Eternity does not.

    Again in order to be consistent with scripture Forever in etenity is that which proceed throughout eternity as it must go on forever.
     
    #18 Allan, Jan 15, 2007
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  19. Allan

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    Continued...

    This connection is here is in the abstract of delination not of time but emotion. Scripture tells us exactly how long he was in the belly of "THE GREAT FISH" Not a whale. Furthermore to assume this instance is anything but a simile to take its rendering out of context for sake of pre-text.
    Yes, I know. Scripture is clear they endure Torment and punishment Forever and ever or better eternally.
    Here are scriptures that speak of their punishment being everlasting:
    Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
    These are only NT and does not included the forever's and forever and ever phrases. However in keeping all things consistant in and with other scripture Matt 25:46 shows that both believers and unbelievers will exist in eternal states but in two different and distinct places. It also shows the existence they will partake in - one unto life and the other punishment both are Eternal.
     
    #19 Allan, Jan 15, 2007
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  20. Jon-Marc

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    If she's still alive and doesn't accept the Lord before death, she will get a big shock some day when she discovers how real it is. If she's not alive, she already knows that.
     

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