Question about NASB and 1 Cor 6:18

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Nimrod, Apr 14, 2003.

  1. Nimrod

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    The KJV states in 1 Cor 1:18 "Flee fornication" as for the NASB it has "Flee immorality". As I looked up this greek word in my (BAGDAD) Lexicon, it speaks nothing of being "immorality". It seems to me immorality is a broader word than fornication. I think we should stick to what the WORD of God says.

    What are you thoughts on this passage?
     
  2. Pastor Larry

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    So if you think we should stick with what the Word of God says, then why accept "fornication"? That is a translation of what God said. The word is porneia and if you looked it up in your BAGD (not BAGDAD), then you should see the definition "sexual immorality." The word of God says to "flee immorality," a much needed message in today's world to be sure.
     
  3. Nimrod

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    Thats just it. I don't.

    Yes I agree we should all flee immorality, but that is not how the word has been translated in my Greek Lexicons.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    Thats just it. I don't.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you need glasses or a new BAGD. From the 3rd edition, p. 693, lower left hand column, I see immorality mentioned 3 times. On the top of the right hand column, the verb form, porneuo is defined as to prostitute or to practice prostitution or sexual immorality.

    The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, 3:137 defines it as "sexual immorality."

    Yes I agree we should all flee immorality, but that is not how the word has been translated in my Greek Lexicons. </font>[/QUOTE]Greek Lexicons are not translations; they are dictionaries. And immorality is an appropriate translation of porneia. I can't imagine you are trying to make a distinction between fornication and immorality. That wouldn't make any sense at all. The word means sexual immorality, and when Paul says to flee it, that is what he means.

    [ April 15, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  5. neal4christ

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    I would somewhat agree with Nimrod, in a way. The NASB is vague by just translating it as immorality. It is clearly sexual immorality, not just any immorality. There are other ways to be immoral besides sexually. Thus I think the NASB misses it here because immorality and sexual immorality are not the same, the latter being more specific, and closer to the original word. This is one of the things that bothers me with the NASB. I like it a lot, but to claim to be so literal, they miss the mark at times for no apparent reason. This, I feel, is one of those times. I first became aware of this translation choice by looking at Matt. 19:9, in which I feel the NASB grossly messes up the real meaning of the verse. Could you divorce your wife because she lied to you? Isn't that immoral? They are just too vague with how they translate the word, IMHO.

    Neal
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    I completely disagree because "immorality" virtually always has the connotation of sexual immorality. When we say "King David was immoral," everyone knows what we are talking about. This is pretty cut and dried.

    Lying does not fit the common usage of "immorality." They are clearly distinguished in Scripture. Again, "immorality" has a well accepted meaning that no one ever questions, except those looking for reasons to complain about God's word. If you complain about the NASB, do you like the NIV? It is explicit, even more clear than the KJV, when it says "sexual immorality." Given a choice, that is the best translation. But to say that the NASB is misleading or unclear cannot be substantiated on the basis of this verse.
     
  7. Nimrod

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    I agree with that

    I don't.

    I would think lying is immoral, therefore "imorality" encompasses lying.


    Come on Larry. We like your output on matters such as these, but give us the benefit of the doubt.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    I think lying is immoral too, but that is not the general connotation of the word. The general connotation of the word, as you appeared to agree, is sexual immorality and that is what this passage is talking about ...

    My point is that there is nothing unclear about it at least as far as I can see.
     
  9. neal4christ

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    I respect that you disagree, but I don't see it cut and dry. I feel it is vague. When someone says something is immoral I don't first think of a sexual conotation. So to me, it is vague. Also, don't forget, I just said I like the NASB. I am not questioning God's Word. I just don't think the NASB is as accurate as it could be here. And no, I don't care for the NIV much, mainly because of translation philosophy. I am not trying to defend KJVO or even the KJV, I use the NKJV and ESV mostly. So don't take it that I am attacking MV's, I just don't like the NASB's rendering of this word and a few others.

    Neal
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Neil,

    I don't think you were questioning God's word at all. I don't mean to imply that. There are some things we could take issue with in every translation. There are different ways to translate the same word and the versions demonstrate that for us.
     
  11. Pastor_Bob

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    I agree with this opinion. The word "πορνεια" (porneia,) specifically refers to "harlotry" which is a sexual sin. The other word "fornication" used in this verse is "πορνεθο" (porneuo.) It specifically means, "to act the harlot." Both times it refers to specific sexual sins.

    To translate both of these words as "immorality" is too broad of a translation. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words does not mention the word "immorality" anywhere in the definition of either of these Greek words.

    I will agree that the word "immorality" carries with it sexual connotations, but the word "fornication" carries more than a connotation; it speaks directly and explicitly of sexual sin. That it the intent of the Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit IMHO.
     
  12. christfollower55

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    How is it immoral? I havn't read it...


    GOD BLESS AMERICA
     
  13. Pastor_Bob

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    1 Cor. 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. (KJV)

    1 Cor. 6:18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. (NKJV) emphasis mine

    I believe the translators of the NKJV agree with our assessment Neal.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    As do the translators of the dreaded and hated NIV. :D As I previously said, I prefer the NIV's translation, but I find it hard to call the NASB wrong or misleading.
     
  15. rlvaughn

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    That "'immorality' virtually always has the connotation of sexual immorality" is much too broad of a statement. Immorality is often used to speak in a general sense. Just hearing or reading "immorality" doesn't make me think "sexual immorality." Of course, such a distinction could vary with different population groups in the English-speaking world. Though some may be questioning God's Word, questioning whether "immorality" is always equivalent to or connotes "sexual immorality" is hardly the same as complaining about God's Word. It could just be a question of which word is the most accurate translation.
     
  16. Dr. Bob

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    Have heard no end of preaching on "fornication", with odd definitions and distinctions from "adultery". Reason? 99.9% of our hearers (and preachers) have no clue exactly what "fornication" is! :rolleyes:

    But we all know what "sexual immorality" is. Praise God for an English translation of God's Word in the language of the plowboy! :eek:
     
  17. Artimaeus

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    Pastor Larry,
    The NASB is quite consistent with its use of the word "immorality" or "immoral" meaning "sexual immorality". However, consistency does not make it right. Immorality means "not moral". Moral has many meanings and connotations which have nothing to do with sexuality. The opposite of each one of those would be immoral (lying, cheating, stealing, etc.). A far cry from the "virtually always" that you mentioned. Even the NASB does not always use "moral" as "sexually pure". The NASB "bent the nail" a little on this one.

    You said: "I can't imagine you are trying to make a distinction between fornication and immorality."

    I, for one, am not making a distiction between "fornication" and "sexual immorality". I am making a distinction between "fornication" and "immorality"
    All snow is frozen, but everything frozen isn't snow.
    All men are people, but all people aren't men.
    All porneia is immoral but, all immorality is not porneia.
    Porneia is a subset of immorality, they are not equivalent terms.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    I am not sure what world you guys are living in but it is very different than mine. When I hear of someone who has fallen into immorality, there is only one thing that means. When I hear of a couple who have been immoral, there is only one meaning. I understand what "immorality" means in a technical sense, but I cannot remember the last time it was used in that sense. I guess we just live in different worlds or something. When I preach on immorality, people know what it is I am saying. I even looked it up in the dictionary the other day and it said "especially sexual mores" or something to that affect, but the "especially" pointed out the common usage. But hey, whatever ... As I said, I prefer the NIV's translation here.
     
  19. Nimrod

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    Your right, I looked up those words in the Noah Webster Dictionary 1850(sometime around there). And it explained the difference between them. I never heard a preacher explain the difference at any sermon.
     
  20. Pastor_Bob

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