Question about so called “Worldly tools” that are hurting the Church? Choices

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Apr 11, 2008.

  1. TaliOrlando

    TaliOrlando
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    Question about so called “Worldly tools” that are hurting the Church?

    I have a question regarding what is commonly called worldly tools. Please bare with me as I try to ask appropriately. Alright, well there are many and I include myself who question Christian Rap or contemporary Christian music. I honestly didn’t know exactly why I questioned it, but honestly just jumped on the bandwagon regarding it. Many say that it’s not of God because God never uses music to liberate anyone or to minister to anyone however what about the following:

    1 Samuel Chapter 16 14-23
    A Distressing Spirit Troubles Saul
    14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him. 15 And Saul’s servants said to him, “Surely, a distressing spirit from God is troubling you. 16 Let our master now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is a skillful player on the harp. And it shall be that he will play it with his hand when the distressing spirit from God is upon you, and you shall be well.”
    17 So Saul said to his servants, “Provide me now a man who can play well, and bring him to me.”
    18 Then one of the servants answered and said, “Look, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a mighty man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a handsome person; and the LORD is with him.”
    19 Therefore Saul sent messengers to Jesse, and said, “Send me your son David, who is with the sheep.” 20 And Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine, and a young goat, and sent them by his son David to Saul. 21 So David came to Saul and stood before him. And he loved him greatly, and he became his armorbearer. 22 Then Saul sent to Jesse, saying, “Please let David stand before me, for he has found favor in my sight.” 23 And so it was, whenever the spirit from God was upon Saul, that David would take a harp and play it with his hand. Then Saul would become refreshed and well, and the distressing spirit would depart from him

    Above we see that Saul has a distressed spirit that was bothering him. Many went to play the harp but nothing happened because they didn’t have God on their side, however when David went to play the harp God moved and the distressing spirit would leave Saul. Please notice that it was a harp just like those who didn’t have God in their lives had, it was the same rhythm, however the difference was who was behind the rhythm and that was God.

    Now, in saying that, what I personally believe is that God provides us all choices. We are going to stand before him in the day of judgement and when he judges us, we will not be able to have any excuse because we have a choice, to seek God or seek the world. This is why he is providing choices to people, you have a choice to listen to 50 cent, Wu-Tang Clan, DMX, Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, Korn, Ext… or to listen to Christian artists that are now saved and sing for the lord through the same beat and rhythm yet with a different message of hope and of who God is.

    I know many are saying but God will not use that which causes so much sin and hurt in this world to minister to today’s youth or liberate them, but he used David with the same harp and rhythm and if he did it with David how much more us who are washed by the blood of Christ.

    I need your help on this one and please be open minded with God, don’t just judge without praying or asking God to help you help me on this subject. See because if we say that God can never save anyone through music, then at the same time he cant never saved anyone through a Baptist Board yet I get edified every day through it. The internet is full of so much sin, but we have a CHOICE. We can Click on a Adult Website or go to a Baptist Board. Its about Choice!!!

    Do you get what I am saying? Microphones, speakers and Buildings that the Church uses are the very same thing the world uses to minister to Hollywood but whats the difference the message. Same microphones, speakers, buildings ext… but we have a Choice to enter a Club and go dancing and hear the DJ, sing through the microphone and hear it through the speakers OR to go to a Church and hear the preacher talk about Christ through microphones and speakers. We have a choice!!!

    See, if we say that contemporary Christian music artist are from the Devil or that God wouldn’t use such a tool then at the same time what are you doing in here right now reading this, the internet does more harm than Good but we have a choice. I am not saying that every so called Christian music artist is from God and has good intentions besides gaining money but we will know them by their fruits. Before you buy a CD, google the lyrics to the songs and see if they have a meaning and edify you.

    Please remember once again, don’t ever say again that God has not used music to liberate anyone because he did it for Saul. Using the same harp of the world, same rhythm of the world but the difference was God.

    Microphones: Used in satanic rock concerts and also used in Churches to minister to the sinners.
    Speakers: Used in satanic rock concerts and in many clubs but also used to minister to the lost in Churches.

    Internet: Used by many child predators seeking to rape little children but at the same time used to minister the word of God and it’s a tool to reach this modern society.

    Buildings: There are many buildings used for satanic purposes, clubs, society’s ext. but at the same time there are buildings in every corner that preach the word of God.

    Bottom line with all of the above, we have a Choice to enter one of the other, we have a choice to listen to one of the other, just because it sounds similar to the world it doesn’t mean its from the world because David used the same harp, same rhythm but it still liberated Saul from that horrible spirit because God was with him. Now if he backed up David, how much more us that are washed by the Blood of the living Jesus Christ.

    Sorry for so long and please don’t go off on me.:1_grouphug: If you feel I am incorrect please, pray about it and explain it to me in detail. I love you all!!!

    God Bless,
    Tali
     
    #1 TaliOrlando, Apr 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2008
  2. TaliOrlando

    TaliOrlando
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    I pray and hope everyone is doing amazing today!!! If you could please take a few mins to read the original post and tell me your thoughts it would be appreciated!!! God Bless!!:flower: :smilewinkgrin:
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    Funny, I can't find that many went to play the harp. Can you point me to that verse please? or are you just adding to the Scripture?

    Scripture please?

    Same rythym? And you know this how?
     
  4. TaliOrlando

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    Ok.. you took it well. Thanks for at least responding... well a harps noise is a harps noise. They were looking for someone who could play the harp and help Saul get rid of that Spirit. Do you think David was the only person in town who could have played that Harp? I am sure he wasnt but please if you can be so kind, can you please comment on the other stuff, I need feedback and you give it well. Thanks for being so awesome and at least responding!!! :thumbs:

    Ok.. what about these
    Microphones: Used in satanic rock concerts and also used in Churches to minister to the sinners.
    Speakers: Used in satanic rock concerts and in many clubs but also used to minister to the lost in Churches.

    Internet: Used by many child predators seeking to rape little children but at the same time used to minister the word of God and it’s a tool to reach this modern society.

    Buildings: There are many buildings used for satanic purposes, clubs, society’s ext. but at the same time there are buildings in every corner that preach the word of God.

    There is no scripture to support any of these but its used in Church.
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

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    It is not the microphone, it is not the speakers, it is not the building. It is the message.

    One cannot mix the world with the Word and expect to please God.

    People listen to rock and roll, country, rap, reggae, etc., because it feeds their flesh. It is the message of the world.

    To mix the message of the world with the Church, one stains the Church.
     
  6. rbell

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    And, as usual, SFIC gets to define the terms.

    A song with Christian lyrics that you call "country," another might call "pop," and still another "southern Gospel." Who's right?

    Welll.....SFIC, of course. :rolleyes:

    You get to define "worldly" as you wish (and ironically, it always seems to line up with your personal preferences)....and when you have that perogative, the "answers" come pretty easily.

    And so to people who would say that the musical style (not lyrics, but style) is the medium that carries the message....you are therefore saying the same thing.
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

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    Apparently others get to define 'godly' as they wish.
     
  8. Joe

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    Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
     
  9. webdog

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    ...and so that makes YOU the authority on how godly is defined? You have the nerve to call out another poster as "prideful" when they stated they couldn't believe the changes their body was making due to exercise!
     
  10. rbell

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    If so, it's because we've learned from "perfect" people who define "worldly" as they wish....and equate God's preferences with their own.
     
  11. trustitl

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    Boys and girls, everybody play nicely. :1_grouphug:

    "Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love" Rom. 12:10

    "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love" Eph. 4:1-2
     
  12. trustitl

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  13. queenbee

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    Well I guess my obvious question is "What are you doing here on the BB, SFIC? The internet is a wordly tool using text, graphics, audio and video to send out a wordly message. To paraphrase you, wordly tools "mix the message of the world with the church, and stain the church". Why then are you using a wordly tool to feed your flesh, soul, heart and mind??

    The point is there is nothing wrong in YOU using a wordly tool to grow your relationship with Christ is there? Then there is nothing wrong with others on the BB using other wordly tools, including songs, drama, etc. provided they glorify God for His purposes. The minute you start expounding that wordly tools are OK for you to use, but do not extend that same freedom to Tali, myself or others, is the minute you start your legalistic, hypocritcal, Pharisee act. And if you truly believe what you are saying SFIC, then you, I and EVERYONE ELSE ON THE BB BOARD had better fold up the tents and go home. After you Omar - I'll turn off the lantern, bring round the camels and meet you at the front flap.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Just as a microphone, speakers, and a building can be used for God or for the world, so also the internet can be used for God or the world.

    The BB is not promoting the evil that is out on the internet (although some members do believe and teach contrary to the Word of God).

    If the owner of the BB begins promoting the pornography and other things that God's Word declares to be sin, I would say it has crossed the line concerning their name of Baptist and that which God calls sin. At that point, I would declare them to be useless to promoting Christ and I would leave.

    I do not surf the worldly sites out there. I come on a board that claims to be of God to share that which God has given me through His Word.

    The owner of Baptist Board would be just as wrong as the Church that begins acting worldly... if the owner of BB began promoting that which God calls sin.
     
  15. annsni

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    SFIC - I have an honest question for you. I was thinking of this today and wanted to ask you. Is there ANYTHING that you feel is not what you want to do in church or whatever but isn't "evil" and of satan? You know, something you say "It's not my style but there's nothing wrong with it."? It seems like either you feel something is right or something is wrong with just about everything - but I've never seen you say "Eh - doesn't matter to me but it's not my thing."

    Personally, I'm not into hymnals - I prefer to look up when I sing. I'm certainly no professional singer but I've found that I sing more confidently and clearly when I'm singing ahead of me rather than down into a book. But I'm never going to say that a hymnal is bad and a projector is good. It's just a preference. Or the seats in church....Our church has seats rather than pews. It allows for more versatility to the largest room in the church and it can be set up into many configurations from seating as many people as possible for church or breaking it down to a smaller, more intimate setting for a wedding. Or even setting it up into small groups for classes, setting out tables for a large potluck or taking all the seats out so we can fix the huge leak that happened because the new sprinkler system was not capped properly (thanks to the sprinkler system company).

    So, is there anything you say "eh" about? Or do you have a definite "this is of God" or "this is of satan" thinking on everything with the church?
     
  16. TaliOrlando

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    Standing firm in Christ... brother I have much love for you. You have such a passion for Christ and is very appreciated!!! All I have to say, that the internet is a tool to minister but its also something that many use to please their flesh with pornography and stuff. Same thing with certain Christian singers who sing for God, it might sound like the world but listen to the lyrics... just like the internet is used for bad things but you choose to say.. no.. to pornography and yes to the BB board... same thing with music, you say no to Britney Spears, Dmx, 50 Cent and Yes to Lighthouse, Israel Hughes, ext....
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    you say same thing with music... and i agree. Can't you see? The music... not the lyrics that is not godly. And to take that type of music that the world sings their songs to and somehow think one is pleasing God by changing the lyrics is trying to serve two masters. Eating at the table of the Lord while drinking of the cup of the world.

    And you think God is pleased with compromise?
     
  18. FriendofSpurgeon

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    So what about our reggae concert at church tomorrow? I guess that's out for some of you. However, all are welcome.
     
  19. windcatcher

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    Tali,
    Music is much mentioned in the Bible. In many cases it was songs like the one Miriam sang after the crossing of the Red Sea. The words extol the goodness and glory of God and often served to remind of some experience. It was not only sounds and rhythm, but often words.... and kept the message of a memorable event to future generations.... It was a form of tell them to your children and your childrens children. Other songs were like prayer.... The Psalms is a form of song book which contains many messages: those of despair, hope, praises, stories, dreams, conviction, salvation, peace, trust, confidence in God's faithfulness.

    I'm so sorry, as I've not done a study on this before finding this thread so I'm not acquainted with all the musical instruments found in the Bible: The harp is familiar, also the 'trumpet' or horn. Possibly there might have been drums or similar percussion like wood blocks but I don't recall mention of these if there were. Oh yes there was cymbals, timbles?, possibly bells? The Bible tells us that people raised their hands, clapped their hands, and danced before the Lord.

    I'm concerned when interpretation goes beyond what the Bible says, i.e. regarding that others played, what kind of music they played, their spiritual condition. When David's harp soothed Saul's troubled soul, I feel certain the sounds were melodic, peaceful, calming....not frantic or exciting. I know some churches still believe in no piano or organ because they consider the Israelites used instruments which could only be carried. Some churches may position their music with no instruments at all: I don't believe the Bible restrains us to these interpretations.

    If I recall correctly, music was considered to be a special ministry. Anyone might 'make' music, but in the worship and celebrations, dedicated persons called 'muscians' were the ones who carried the song or led the assembly. I think of the Jewish model because, even when Jesus came, the first Christians were Jewish and they continued in their teachings and traditions on the Sabbath as well as meeting with fellow believers in other assemblies during the remaining 6 days.

    I do not know the nature of their music, but I would guess that in a Grekco-Roman Empire, where the masses of people were pagan, with many dieties, many forms of music were associated with pagan celebrations, rituals, customs, many associated with parties, excesses of alcohol, sexual looseness and orgies. The music associated with pagan celebrations were not likely the music of the early church, even though it was popular on Main Street. Due to the traditions of their separation, I have little doubt that the Jewish-Christians would have abhorred accepting a musical form associated with pagan rituals. Presumably, though I don't think it is specifically addressed, much could be understood by Paul's repeated admonition to be separate not conforming to this world but being transformed....that the early Gentile Christians also followed closely the forms of worship modeled by their Jewish brothers in Christ. I do not know this... I just strongly suspect this.

    I do know that the return of Jesus, and the approaching tribulation was considered an imminent possiblity in Paul's own day. He encouraged the flock that in as much as they see signs, presumably, of that day approaching that they would comfort one another with songs, and spiritual songs, singing melodies. This strongly suggest the music was worshipful in acknowledging the glory of God and his work, and/or related to the troubles they were enduring in persecution, and encouraged each other with peace and hope in testimony of their trials. This, like i said, I strongly suspect though I do not know. This strongly suggest that there was order, melody, harmony, meaning, and the rhythym and harmonies were reflective of the peace and order which comes from the Spirit, not the dissonance or hectic beats which seem to come from the flesh.

    I try not to judge too much the music in the modern service. An upbeat and quick movement seems appropriate to joy and celebration. A slower or more calming rhythym and smooth melody seems more in keeping with awe, peace, reflection, prayer, contrition, and submission, which are also forms of worship. I love having a hymn book because, when the song is unfamiliar, and people around me or the accoustics of the instruments fall upon my ear uncertainly, I follow the notes...when they go up I sing higher, when they fall I go down in tones. With only the screen to follow, I'm left whispering the words and listening keenly to hear the actual melody.

    I'm 'okay' with it, but there are times when I long to sing 'A Mighty Fortress is My God" or "The Church's One Foundation" or 'Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow', or 'Fairest Lord Jesus' or 'In the Garden' or 'It Is Well With My Soul' or "Victory In Jesus', ets.. Most of the 'old' songs I sang as a child. In the internal lonliness which only a child can know, I knew I had an ally, a protector and defender in God, and associated with the words much of the experiences of my life with God who understands. Much of that 'old' discarded music remains with me today, and I can sing far more than the songs I named from memory. Perhaps, and I hope, the music which seems preferred today, will make an indelible mark associated with God and worship, trials and joy on the hearts of our youth today, much as the music I was raised with. The reason? Music is one form of worship which a person can do and which seems to bring one into the presence of God and encourages and gives comfort while expressing one's need in adversity, a fellowship with God and the believer even in the absence of other people. We should remember God in the good times, but it is in adversity that faith grows, and it is how we respond to adversity i.e. studying the Scripture, prayer, praise, and reaching out to others in which faith in Christ reaches back to us in the plane of our emotions and feelings, and ministers to us, both on a carnal level and a spiritual level...... It helps in returning our carnal feelings and emotions back into balance with our spirit. Does the modern music do this? I don't know. Even back when I was a teen, I cared little for the pop music except the heart-sick sappy stuff which was also prevalent in 'my' day. LOL

    I have heard the testimonies of some musical stars which suggest tha t much of pop music is inspired by or associated with occult activities and drugs and sex. It is hard to conceive that worshipful, meaningful, God gloryfying words can be associated with some of these mod forms. However, as I say this, I also recall that some of the old 'church' music used the more popularly known tunes of the bar room rounds to which words were put which gave the transformed former barroom frequenter, the opportunity to worship God in melody to which he was already accustom.

    I think the purpose of music in the church is to worship God. It is an expression from our heart to Him. If it comes from from deep springs then it includes something of our experience in relationship to him and expression of faith it can be rich in meaning. It is not vain repetition.

    How does one judge 'worldly tools'? Much invention/'tools' has little to do with 'judgement' and is inert except in or how it is used. If one knows Christ as his Savior and loves Him then there naturally springs from the deep inside a desire to please Jesus and to be more like Jesus. We don't lose our identity, but living out our identity becomes less and less important as the desire to show the world Jesus becomes more and more a part of us. The 'tools' we then We are cautioned not to conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our mind. Transformation takes a change in attitude, thought, and meaning.

    Somewhere in Scripture it speaks that the calling of God is without repentance. This, on its surface, sounds strange when John the Baptist and Jesus sent disciples to preach repentance and baptism for the remission of sins. However, and I don't mind correction if I'm wrong, I believe it means that in whatever talents and gifts God has given you, repentance is for sin.... not for the abilities which God gave you. Those abilities and calling is for the glory of God. You use your abilities to glorify God and proclaim Jesus, then it is pleasing in his sight.

    Instead of giving you an 'absolute' answer, I hope I have correctly led you into areas whereby you can correctly make the choices and judgements for yourself, according to his will in your life and your honesty before his face. I can't say what this will look like...except it will resemble Jesus, if you make your choice in Him. He has told us that we are one body with many members so I feel restraint in telling what or where or to whom or how God has called another.

    May God bless and fill you.
     
    #19 windcatcher, Apr 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2008
  20. D28guy

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    StandingFirm,

    Unless its christian rock and roll, christian country, christian rap, and christian reggae, etc...

    In that case it doesnt feed their flesh, but their spirit.

    They are blessed, strenghthened and edified.

    God bless,

    Mike
     

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