Question about the Mormon Jesus

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Mike McK, Apr 10, 2003.

  1. Mike McK

    Mike McK
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    I was having (or trying to have) a conversaton with a couple of Mormons on another site.

    One of them insisted that they are Christians and that Mormonism is valid because they believe in Jesus.

    In itself, that's a little vague but I don't think most of us would have a problem with it, given the way that "believe in Jesus" and "faith in Jesus" are commonly used.

    I pointed out the differences between the Mormon Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible and he didn't respond, except to say that they had faith in Jesus.

    Now my question is this:

    All other differences between the two Jesus' aside, can a Jesus who was a man, exalted to Godhood by keeping the law (remember, in Mormon theology, Jesus was not always God) be an acceptable sacrifice?

    The conversation on this other board is over, but I'm still curious to know what you all think.
     
  2. DHK

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    If that Jesus was the product of a union between a god and a godess from a different world, and thus a creation, how could he be an acceptable sacrifice. Of course he is not an acceptable sacrifice from the Biblical point of view because he is not the Christ of the Bible. If he is not the Christ of the Bible:
    1. Did he die or even have the capability to die for our sins.
    2. Was this created being sinlesss?
    3. Even if he was sinless, he wasn't timeless. Only an eternal being could die for the sins of all eternity. Knowing their theology this god is no more greater than any other god. What would give him the power to die for our sins? We all become "gods" in eternity when we die, according to their theology.
    DHK
     
  3. Chemnitz

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    They themselves probably don't know who Jesus is and what it means to believe in Him. There doctrine's change on a nearly daily basis. Just about everytime the elect a new president their theology changes. On the same note my one experience with Mormons the conversation ended when I asked how they can say they believe in the same Jesus I do when they insist that He was concieved in a physical relationship and when I insisted that they provide historical and archeological evidence from non-Mormon sources.
     
  4. LaRae

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    Mormon's deny the Trinity...they also think Satan and Jesus were brothers.

    Mormons also believe that you can become just like God, ruling over your own worlds and create men in your own image. They also believe God has a wife in Heaven.

    That's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Mormon "theology".


    LaRae
     
  5. Mike McK

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    I know you mean that in a rhetorical sense, but that's my question: what requirements must Jesus have to be the unblemished Lamb of God?

    If He was just a man who was exalted to godhood through the keeping of God's laws, then why can't we do the same? If Mormon theology is true, why do we need Jesus at all?

    If He was a man before He was exalted and was exalted only after keeping a prescribed set of laws, then I think we have to assume that He wasn't created sinless.

    Not timeless in His diety but timeless in being, according to LDS teaching.

    OK. He must be sinless and eternal. What else?
     
  6. Mike McK

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  7. Mike McK

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    Right. They're polytheists.

    [qb]
    Kind of like what the serpent told Eve, huh?

    Yes. "Mother God".

    Yes, there's a lot more and some of it gets pretty bizzare.

    We haven't even gotten to the "holy underwear", yet.
     
  8. Johnv

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    Doctrine or no, a person who believes that Jesus died for his/her sins and takes Jesus into his/her heart is saved. Doctrine, denomination, and affiliation are typically asalvific issues. Yoou can have a doctrine that's way off kilter and still be saved.
     
  9. WonderingOne

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    Amen, Johnv, I totally agree!

    Looking up and stirring the pot,
    Carol
     
  10. DHK

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  11. Mike McK

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    I agree with you to a point.

    See, this is the problem I had with this Mormon guy: he was saying that he was a Christian and Mormonism is true because they have faith in Christ.

    The problem is that we're talking about two different Christ's here.

    * They deny the Trinity

    * They deny Christ's pre-exsistant diety (remember, they believe that Christ was a man who was exalted to goodhood by keeping God's law, which begs the question, "who's law did God keep to be exalted to godhood"?)

    * They deny His equality with the Father

    * They deny Christ's virgin birth, as well as God the Father's paternity

    * The teach that He is one of many "savior gods" in the universe

    * They deny His sinless nature

    There are others, but you get the point.

    I'm all for showing people the liberty to believe differently on the issue of non-essentials, but these things are essentials.

    My question is, when you say you have faith in Christ, does it matter which Christ? Or do we just boil Christ down to an esoteric idea?
     
  12. Singer

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    Well I work with my Mormon raised son in law everyday and we
    often make comments about. . . "God was sure looking over us in
    that case" or "Better say our prayers". . . etc.

    With heads bowed at table grace; grandson folding his 2 yr old hands,
    it's impossible to think this little guy is being led to believe in a
    different Jesus.

    It's all the same. To be exact, there were lots of little boys named
    Jesus in AD 30. It would have been possible to mix them up then....
    but not now. We reverence Jesus, the Son of God, the one who
    died on the cross and raised from the dead. Whether He was God
    or not is immaterial to our faith. We have faith in the acts that He
    performed that gives us eternal life.....whoever He was.

    A "different Jesus" would be someone claiming to be the risen savior
    who has returned to earth and is misleading people. The antichrist
    might do that. We know the difference.

    When we invite Christ into our hearts/lives, it's up to Him to ''come in
    to us'' as John 3:16 promises. It's not possible to receive the wrong
    Christ in that circumstance.
     
  13. DHK

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    (Col 1:27 KJV) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    --Which Christ is in you? Is He God, or just a man or a prophet?

    Rom.8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    --Which Spirit dwells in you? The Mormon spirit? The Spirit of Christ? Some other spirit?


    Rom.8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    --The most important question to be asked: Is Christ in you? The only Christ I know is God.

    Gal.2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    The Christ that lives in me is God, not a created being born of a god and goddess from another planet. To believe in that (and Mormons do) is blasphemy. You cannot be saved with that belief.
    DHK
     
  14. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    I must agree with DHK: The true Jesus was God in the beginning! Anyone called "Jesus," therefore, who was not God in the beginning is NOT the true Jesus. If the Mormons believe in a Jesus who became God at some point in time, that figment of their imagination is not the true Jesus and they, therefore, cannot be saved by that figment.
     
  15. Mike McK

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    That brings up another LDS false teaching about Jesus: that His death on the cross wasn't sufficient, that He actually atoned in the Garden of Gethsemene and and on the cross. I didn't bring that up, though, because considering the teaching that He was a man who exalted by keeping the law (which assumes that He was sinful) the Gethsemene thing is kind of minor.

    If it's not immaterial. It's very important. If He wasn't God, then not only does this cast doubt on His words and OT prophecies concerning Him but on the very nature of God, Himself.

    You don't say which acts, but I'm going to assume you mean his death on the cross.

    In spite of the fact that the Bible says over and over that is was His death on the cross that bought our atonement, Mormons don't believe that His death on the cross was sufficient, rather, that it was His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemene and His death on the cross.

    You mean like the Jesus Joseph Smith taught? Remember, according to LDS teaching, Jesus came to North America to deliver the gospel to the Indians. The only problem is that in Mormonism "salvation" includes works and the observation of rituals. Actually, even their idea of salvation is different than what the Bible teaches because everybody is "saved" to one degree or another.

    You don't go to Hell, you go to a "terrestrial", "telestial" or "celestial" kingdom, depending on your works.

    Sounds like a different Jesus, and certanly a different gospel, to me.

    If you're so sure of that, then why does the Bible tell us to watch out, lest we be decieved by him?

    OK, but if you recive the Mormon Christ, one who was a man who was exalted to godhood by keeping the law (which, again, assumes that He was a sinful being)Can you be saved? In other words, is having faith in something enough if the object of your belief is invalid?

    By the way a couple of questions for you (or your son in law or anyone else who's interested). If Jesus was a man who was exalted to godhood by keeping the law, can we be exalted to godhood by keeping the law?

    If the BoM (Abraham 3:25) tells us that having a physical body is a prerequisite to eternal progression, how was Jesus exalted to godhood before He assumed a physical body?
     
  16. Chrift

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    I had to learn about a totally different Jesus when I was saved from that cult. They are not the same.
     
  17. Singer

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    Chrift:

    Could you earnestly say that you have just learned new truths about
    the same Jesus, or do you really think you believed in a totally different
    Jesus...?

    I say this, because there is no other Jesus out there to believe in.

    Those types of Jesuses would just be figments of the imagination, kinda
    like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

    I can say that I ''believe in" Satan too because he's a real being, but
    a "different Jesus" doesn't even exist. Maybe that would be a case of
    "Unfounded Faith" instead of a different Jesus. Suppose ?

    With Mormon relatives, I'm confronted to try to understand this for my own good.


    Thanks.
     
  18. Glen Seeker

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    As I see it,

    Jesus 1: His Father God, who was a man at one time, had sex with Mary. Born as a man. Lived totally as a man. Died and then became a God because he lived a perfect life according to Mormon belief.

    Jesus 2: Is/Was/Will be God eternal. Came down to Earth and became a man born of a virgin. Was fully man and fully God. Suffered and died for our sins and redemption. Is again united with the Father and the Holy Spirit (One God, Three Persons)

    Different Jesuses or different aspects of the same one? Hmmmm... :confused:
     
  19. Chrift

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    ... figments of Joseph Smith's imagination.

    It is the same as the argument that the God of the bible is the same or different as Allah ("god"). The Jesus of Christianity is not a man who became one of many "gods". He is not satan's brother. He did not die for SOME sins. The mormon "jesus" doesn't exhist. The bible teaches us who Jesus is. Making up a deity and naming him after the savior won't save anyone from anything. It is funny looking back at when I was a kid. The lds used to drill it into my head how they were so different from Christianity. Now I talk to people and they have done a full 180. The trend now seems to be to try to identify and blend in with Christians. They now try to call themselves Christian. Try to draw Christians away with the idea that Christianity is somehow incomplete. How they have all these revelations coming from living prophets that contradict God's Word.... a horrible, horrible deceptive cult... [​IMG]
     
  20. Singer

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    Glen and Chrift:

    Alot of truth in what you say...thanks.

    Being a survivor of what some think to be a cult, I proceeded out
    of the 2x2 (Cooneyites) where we were also told that any others
    outside of our group who served God, were doing it in vain because
    we were the "Truth" and the "Gospel". That was even names we
    referred to our group as. Participants are called Saints.

    My point (and question).....

    (I grew up in this and left at age 14)

    I truthfully feel that I was offered the same Jesus that you all know today.
    My bible was given to me by my 2x2 parents. The same verses I rely on today;
    I read at age 12. I have the same concept of God that I did at that age.
    The Jesus and God they preached (and preach today) is the same God I now
    know. The problem seems to be (and I've had 40 more years to consider this) [​IMG] ....
    .....is that they are right, but they just think they're the ONLY ONES WHO ARE
    RIGHT !!.

    I've always said that.
    They gave no credit to my own faith only because I didn't worship with them.
    I could yet...take the same thoughts/faith/awareness that I have and
    go back to them and "profess" (they call it) in one of their meetings and I
    would be accepted. (As long as I joined their church so to speak).

    It seems like those who exit the group do so only because they can't see
    the necessity of their dresscode and they finally realize that the 2x2s do
    NOT have the franchise on God. I've never heard that it was to find another
    Jesus, or that they realized that they were serving a ''wrong Jesus".

    I'm trying to consider what you all say. Keep going.

    Thanks
     

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