Question about the Mormon Jesus

DHK,

first Im assuming that your distaste for my affirmation to believing in universal salvation is something of a paradox while thinking of this tightly focused subject. sorry.

secondly. the process of sanctification of the christian growth must really be confusing when you are viewing the possible end results. seeing that if some are not accepting jesus as their lord before their physical death...they are still "saved" and they still end up in heaven..

but technically some would not be a member of the elect in heaven...

answer this and it all comes together..

just what is the purpose of the elect ?
and
what would be their differing characteristics in comparison to the non-elect if both end up in heaven together...

Me2

 

What is the difference between an honest person and a thief?
What is the difference between one who exhibits the works of the flesh as opposed to one who exhibits the works of the spirit?
DHK

 

(DHK)
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that
acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

(Singer)
By saying "he that acknowledgeth the Son has the Father also"
tells me that it's impossible to receive the Son without the Father.

If they are ONE and a person accepts Jesus, it would be impossible to
separate the Father (God) from the Son (Jesus) and just receive one of
them.

Therefore, there is no arguement here. Anyone who accepts the Lord Jesus
automatically gets the Father. And if the Father is present, who could
make accusations of non compliance.

Whether it was clear, understood and established in one's mind or not;
having the Son is being born again. And as the scripture said...."He who
has the Son has life".

It did not confuse matters by saying "he who has the Son and the Father
has life",............... BUT it DID say he who acknowledgeth the Son
has the Father also..!!

That's from you, DHK, can you deny this fact that receiving one is to
receive them both? They are One and inseparable. How could we
separate them in our mind? Impossible . I think your fears are unfounded.

Singer

[ April 15, 2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

There is no argument here only if you believe automatically in the deity of Jesus Christ and in the trinity. Certainly, the Father and the Son are intrinsically bound together in the triune Godhead. They are inseparable. Thus the belief in the trinity. But there are people that reject the trinity such as hrhema and 3AM. There are many religions that do not accept the doctrine of the trinity. Your point was in favor of the trinity.
DHK

 

To make it simpler yet:

How can a mere man separate (or not include) the Father from the Son
when praying for salvation ?

"to acknowledge the Son is to also have the Father".

God does not divide himself...how could we possibly do that when receiving
Jesus Christ...?

Singer

 

Were you baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost 20 years ago? Ever?

(Mat 28:19-20 NKJV) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, {20} "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

A person simply CANNOT be a disciple without being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost nor can they be saved - Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21

 

John 14:
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Here in these verses, Jesus claims to be the way the truth, and the life. He is the only way to salvation. Philip wanted more clarification.

Jesus says plainly, in a declaration of his deity: "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?...Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." Believe. He was claiming in these words to be God. Yet there are many that still refuse it.
DHK

 

Nope, never been baptized.

If salvation occurs when one receives the Son (and Father), then
baptism does not determine salvation or cause it to happen.

Salvation is secured.
Baptism can follow.

 

In Acts 22 we find the account of Paul's conversion. Paul saw Jesus on the road and he went into the city and prayed for three days. But, do you know what happened next??? In Acts 22:16, the preacher Ananias came and asked Paul "What are you waiting for? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." -- Do you know what that means? It means that Paul, who had seen the Lord in the way, still had his sins on him! He was still a dirty sinner! He still had not been washed by the precious blood of Christ! He had seen Christ bodily, but had not recieved Him! THUS, Ananias says "What are you waiting for? Get Up! Be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord!"

Singer, what are you waiting for??? Get up and wash away your sins in baptism, calling on the name of the Lord!!! You have not received the Son nor have you recieved forgiveness of sins until you are baptized!

(Rom 6:5) "For IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death (baptism), we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (newness of life)" -- Newness of life is conditional upon baptism!

 

Sola:

Does any particular church come to mind ?

 

Come ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have never ever heard such a thing in my LIFE!

Forgive me, but the act of baptism is only an outward token or symbol of a BURIAL OF THE PAST! Burial of your old sins and nature..... and to come clean.

That poor guy on the cross who Jesus said would be in Paradise THAT DAY!

What a PITY he did not receive forgiveness of sins.

Jesus must have lied! Given him a false hope as he careened into death.....

Glorious

PS I am not saying bapitsm isn't right. I LIKE the idea of baptism. I think it is a good thing. Hey, I"M baptised! BUT, that isn't whats gonna save you!

 

Glorious:

Yes there's some strange advice given on here.

Actually, I think that post by Sola included a jab that just might
be in favor of baptismal regeneration which is only understood
by those who created the term.

Singer

 

(Sola)

" Isn't he saying that spiritual resurrection DEPENDS on baptism?
Also, how can you say that baptism doesn't save when 1st Peter 3:21
SPECIFICALLY says "baptism saves us"? Isn't that DENYING the Word of God?

posted January 02, 2003 02:02 AM

(Singer)

See the contrasts in the bible....?

One verse says ''baptism saves us'' and another says we are saved
by Grace through faith.

 

Singer,
Sola belongs to the Church of Christ which believes that baptism is necessary to one's salvation or baptismal regeneration, hence the statements that he made.
DHK

 

Yes, I thought it was something like that, DHK.
I guess I'm the guinea pig on the issue. If I don't show up in heaven
someday, those who believe one must be baptized to get to heaven
will win.

Let's don't emphasize baptism on this thread though. It's about
whether or not we can accept a wrong Jesus when submitting to God.

I'm still not satisfied with your answer, DHK.

You've said:

There is no argument here only if you believe automatically in the
deity of Jesus Christ and in the trinity. Certainly, the Father and the
Son are intrinsically bound together in the triune Godhead. They
are inseparable.

I responded with:

Can you deny this fact that receiving one is to receive them both?
They are One and inseparable. How could we separate them in our
mind? Impossible . I think your fears are unfounded.

It doesn't appear to me that our belief enters in to the discussion.
Scripture says that "to acknowledge the Son is to havethe Father".

How could we possibly override this statement by Jesus Himself and
make the claim that we would acknowledge the Son without
acknowledging the Father...?

This should be important to everyone who claims salvation for themselves
and uses scripture in witnessing. If you're right, we might have whole
congregations of spirit filled people who are claiming salvation via God's
grace through their faith (In Jesus) but who do not understand the trinity.

Personally, I think that scenario would be an impossibility.....an unfounded fear.
The bible supports my thoughts.

 

This holds true only if you have a right concept of Jesus to begin with. It holds true only if you believe in the deity of Jesus to begin with. It holds true only if your concept of God and Christ is the same as what the Bible portrays them to be.

A false Christ still remains a false Christ. And there is nothing that you can do to change that. If you put your faith in the Christ of the J.W.'s for instance, your whole syllogism falls apart.
DHK

 

(DHK)

This holds true only if you have a right concept of Jesus to begin with. It holds true only if you believe in the deity of Jesus to begin with. It holds true only if your concept of God and Christ is the same as what the Bible portrays them to be.

A false Christ still remains a false Christ. And there is nothing that you can do to change that. If you put your faith in the Christ of the J.W.'s for instance, your whole syllogism falls apart

(Singer)

I guess our deliberating won't change it or solve it either.
I might ask how a child could have the right concept to begin with though.
The sect I grew up in did not and still does not believe in the trinity...or at
least they don't understand it. Likewise I was not taught it at an early
age but I wan't instructed against it either. It was never brought up. I
never heard of the word "Trinity" until sometime later after I left the sect.

Yet that did not hinder me from believing it, and I know there are members
yet involved that definitely have the spirit of God within them.

Guess we both have good points and more importantly, salvation does not
depend upon whether we understand even this issue. We're asked to
understand that Jesus is our propititation for sins and to accept that fact.

It was Jesus who said He stands at the door and knocks and it is He who
will come in. He left us to guess whether that included God the Son or not.

 

The word "regeneration" is equivalent to the word "rebirth" and is translated both ways in Titus 3:5 where Paul speaks of "the washing of rebirth" (NIV) or "the washing of regeneration." (KJV) This "washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" to which Paul refers is that same thing to which Jesus refers when He says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) Baptism in water is being born of water AND it is the washing of rebirth IN WHICH a BELIEVER is also born of the Holy Spirit being "renewed by the Holy Spirit" in baptism. FOR, while the minister of the gospel immerses a believer into water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit Himself immerses that same person into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13) where they contact Christ's blood and thereby have their sins washed away in baptism. (Acts 22:16) Thus, Peter could say in Acts 2:38 that baptism is FOR the same thing that Jesus shed His blood FOR (Mat 26:28) and that it saves. (1 Peter 3:21)

 

Sola:

1 Peter 3:21 Commentary by Chuck Smith

The true baptism is in the heart. Unless we've allowed the Holy Spirit
to work in our hearts, baptism is a meaningless ritual.


What you've quoted seems to say that baptism itself saves, but to study
further, I believe C. Smith's explanation fits my needs better.