Question about the Rapture and Cor 15:50-54

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Mar 13, 2008.

  1. TaliOrlando

    TaliOrlando
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    Ok.. please read this in Corinthians 15:50-54
    Our Final Victory

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[a]

    Now, notice that this is speaking directly about the Rapture. However one thing that I noticed is that in the word it talks about that We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. It says that this will occur in the last trumpet but not in the first 6 trumpets… this is pretty interesting because it means that we will be here during the first 6 trumpets and will see some crazy judgement’s right? Whats your input in this brothers and sisters and God Bless!!!!

    Tali
     
  2. SeekingHisTruth

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    Tali according to OT typology as well as in the NT the church will not be present during the tribulation. In the OT we see Enoch being removed alive prior to Noah and his family (a type of Israel) being saved through ark in a time of tribulation.

    You see this timeline again in Revelation with the seven (number of completion) churches standing before the judge. All this happens prior to judgment talk.

    Hope that helps!
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

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    Isn't 'last trumpet' of 1 Cor. 15:52, the same as in Matt. 24:31; and Rev. 11:15?

    The last trumpet shall be sounded follow at the second coming at the end of the age. Also, 'last' means final.

    I believe Matt.24:31; 1Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:52; and Rev. 11:15, all are same trumpet.

    Matt. 24:29-31 telling us, Christ shall come in the clouds with power and glory, then the trumpet blown, all saints shall be gathering together at second advent.

    1 Thess. 4:15-17 telling us, Christ shall come in the clouds with power and glory, then the trumpet blown, dead in Christ shall be risen, then alive and remain saints shall be caught up together.

    1 Cor. 15:51-57 telling us, at the last trumpet sounded, all alive and remain saints shall be changed into immortality body.

    Rev. 11:15-18 telling us, at the seventh trumpet sounds, the resurrection of both saved and unsaved, judgment shall be given, saints receive rewards, unsaved will be judged.

    The Bible teaching us very clear that Christ shall come again at once, not twice, which shall be after tribulation.

    Same with John 5:27-29; 6:39,40,44, & 54 telling us, resurrection will be on the LAST DAY of the age, not supposed 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier prior second advent.

    There is only ONE future coming of Christ according to the Bible. I believe them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. SeekingHisTruth

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    So how do you explain that there will be a judgment in the "air" and a judgment "on" the "earth"?

    And how do you explain the first two chapters of Revelation that show the entire "church" before the Judge and no folks that are headed for the lake of fire forever and ever in their midst?
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    TaliOrlando speaking of 1 Corinthians 15:52: //It says that this will occur in the last trumpet but not in the first 6 trumpets…//

    People who have difficulty with 'first' will have problems with 'last'. Nowhere in the Bible is the 'last trumpet' of 1 Corinthians 15:52 said to be the trumpet after the 6th trumpet in Revelation. In fact, the 7th trumpet and

    //Isn't 'last trumpet' of 1 Cor. 15:52, the same as in Matt. 24:31; and Rev. 11:15? //
    No, they are NOT the same.

    Matthew 24:31 is NOT saying 'last' nor 'seventh'.
    Revelation 11:15 is NOT saying 'last' nor 'seventh'.
    1 Cor 15:52 is not saying 'seventh'

    As I discussed in another topic nearby, to make these the same one would have to ASSUME (guess, suggest) that all three are the same. This is a method that can be used to prove something FALSE, but NOT a way to prove something TRUE. If one suggests (assumes, guesses) a truth, goes logically to another statement; if that statement can clearly be seen to be FALSE it is because the assumption (guess, suggesting) that started the line of logica is FALSE.

    However, if you start with an assumption and end up with an obvious truth, it does NOT mean the initial assumption was true.

    Consider this logic:
    If you smoke, then you will die prematurely.

    Consider 'if you smoke' to be false
    'then you will die prematurely' can be true or false.
    (you can not smoke and die prematurely being run over by a Mac Truck)

    Conside 'if you smoke' to be true
    'then you will die prematurely' can only be true

    //I believe Matt.24:31; 1Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:52; and Rev. 11:15, all are same trumpet.//

    You believe something obviously false and non-scriptural.

    //There is only ONE future coming of Christ according to the Bible. I believe them. //

    This is not in the Bible. I agree you believe it, but it is false and non-scriptural.
    (a full 1/3 of my posts on the BB are explaining this statement of mine, obviously I can't put it all into this one post).
     
  6. Palatka51

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    It is indeed the last trumpet, before the vials of the wrath of God are poured out.
    Revelation 11:14-18
    14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    People who don't know Logic (the Logic that God gave to humans; nobody knows God's logic) are going to have to wallow in ignorance (not knowing).

    One's OPINION or GUESS as to what the Bible says is NOT the same as what the Bible says.

    1. The rule of number.
    God repeats the most important things

    Example:
    A. 1 listing (only in some Bibles) of the name of the Lead Devil: Lucifer
    B. 56 uses (KJV1769 Edition) of the Job Title of the Lead Devil: Satan

    2. The rule of number
    God give many pictures of the most important things

    Example: Individual salvation pictures:
    A. saved
    B. born-again
    C. Redeemed
    F. regenerated
    G. adopted into the Family of God
    H. born into the Family of God
    I. elected
    J. sanctified
    etc. etc.

    Individual Salvation must be very important to God, He sent His only begotten Son to die for our salvation

    Ed notes that 'last trumpet' is NOT mentioned in the KJV1769 Bible
    Ed notes that 'last trump' is mentioned once in 1Co 15:52.

    Evidently 'last trump' is NOT one of God's most important ideas.
    By contrast, 'trumpet' appears 61 times in the KJV1769 Editon.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Does anybody want to talk about the term 'last'?
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    1 Th 4:16-18 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For the Lord himselfe shall descend from heauen with a shout, with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
    17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore, comfort one an other with these words.

    Which of the following is more comfortable?

    1. After the worse occurance in the history of the World, ever before or ever after the even -- events called "Tribulation", "Great Tribulation", 1/3 die, 1/4 die, etc -- then the Lord is going to come get the few left.

    2. The Lord will bail us out before the Tribulation Period starts.

    Now, when I say this lots of people get confused (or act that way so they can say stupid things cause they sure can't argue against what I say). I did NOT say these things:

    (NOT - We are such super Chritians that we won't have to suffer)

    (NOT - I am such a super Christian that I deserve to escape when Hell comes to Earth)

    God will hold the pre-tribulation resurrection/rapture according to God's timing, not mine nor yours.
     
  10. Palatka51

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    And yet you have given that the pre-trib is God's timing.
    Ed,
    Do you think that this generation of believers are going to escape persecution? Persecution that is unto our very own blood shed? This generation would then be unique from all of Church history. Especially the American Church.
     
  11. AAA

    AAA
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    This may indicate that the rapture and the 2nd coming of Chrsit is the same thing...What do you think?
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    God gave the the answer ons about 16 years ago:

    ------------------------------------------
    Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
    These things I haue spoken vnto you,
    that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
    ye shall haue tribulation:
    but be of good cheare,
    I haue ouercome the world.

    Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
    Tribulation:

    ---------------------------------
    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity, torture
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom

    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    (AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
    #4 and #5 are measured in time units.

    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
    ---------------------------------

    I've got a list of scriptures to go with this, if you like.
    (using nKJV scriptures)
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    There is a resurrection/rapture in the pre-tribulation Rapture Event.
    There is a resurrection/rapture in the post-tirbulation Resurrection Event
    The two are the two sides of a knife called the Second Advent (Comming) of Jesus. The Second Coming of Jesus will cut between two Ages (Aeon):

    1. The Church Age (age of the Gentiles)
    2. The Millinnial (1,000 years) Messanaic Kingdom

    Here is a writing I wrote probably 14 years ago:

    ------------------------------
    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) [AKA: gathering]
    with the Second Advent (SC = Second Coming): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Messanic Kingdom [AKA: Glorious Appearance].

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age (Church Age)
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement
    and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

    13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
    -- from the wrath to come (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9)
    13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come (Matt 3:7, Luke 3:7)
    ----------------------------------------------
     
  14. Danny Hurley

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    IMHO Jesus can come today or tonight or tomorrow, if so, when is these things going to take place. If this is so he cannot come today or tonight or tomorrow. IMHO when you receive a birth in Christ, you have received a part in the first resurrection, therefore the second death or the lake of fire has no power.
     
  15. Alcott

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    Sure. The last shall be first; and the first last.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Originally Posted by Ed Edwards




    Alcott: //Sure. The last shall be first; and the first last.//

    Unfortunately, that is the last 'last' verse one should study not the first 'last' verse.

    Laying aside minor meanings of 'last' let us take the major one.
    Both 'first' and 'last' have to do with relative position in a list of the elements of a set. Both 'first' and 'last' are dependent upon the arrangement

    For example if one speaks of the one-digit counting numbers, they can be
    arranged in numerical order:

    {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}
    The first two numbers are 1 & 2; the last two numbers are 8 & 9.

    {eight, five, four, nine, one, seven, six, three, two}
    The first two numbers are 8 & 5; the last two numbers are 3 & 2.

    A word about finite sets and infinite sets:

    Finite sets that have a known first subset of elements have a known LAST subset of elements.
    Infinite sets that have a known FIRST subset of elements do NOT have a known LAST subset of elements.
    Infinite sets that have a known LAST subset of elements do NOT have a known FIRST subset of elements.

    In other words (I.E.) if a set is arranged with a first element, then LAST refers only to finite sets (not infinite sets).

    One infinite set we are familiar with is Eternity (forward) AKA (also known as) forever. This is a set of time starting with 1 (time unit, I'll pick 'year'), A list of the set of years of eternity is a list of years {1,2,3,4,5,6,7, ... }
    The ... (epilepsies) shows that the set continues on in the same manner without end, without any LAST element.

    In short, to know what LAST means you need to know what set is being discusses, what order in which the elements are listed, and make sure it is a finite set (one that has a LAST element).

    I'm going to look at some scriptures, scripture verses which have 'LAST' in them.
    'Last' appears 53 times in 48 verses of the KJV1611 Edition of the New Testament.

    The first 'last' scripture is:
    Matthew 12:45 (KJV1611):
    Then goeth he, and taketh with himselfe seuen other spirits more wicked then himselfe, and they enter in and dwell there: And the last state of that man is worse then the first. Euen so shal it be also vnto this wicked generation.

    Here the set of STATES of a person (inhabited by wicked spirits). The states are arrainged first to last in time order. There is a finite number of states (actually, only two are mentioned - yea! and 'easy first 'last' :).

    The second 'last' scripture is the one noted in my post above and in another post before this post:
    Mat 19:27-30 (KJV1611 Edition).
    Then answered Peter, and said vnto him, Behold, we haue forsaken all, and followed thee, what shall we haue therefore?
    Mat 19:28 And Iesus said vnto them, Uerily I say vnto you, that ye which haue followed me, in the regeneration when the Sonne of man shal sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shal sit vpon twelue thrones, iudging the twelue tribes of Israel.
    Mat 19:29 And euery one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my Names sake, shall receiue an hundred fold, and shall inherite euerlasting life.
    Mat 19:30 But many that are first, shall be last, and the last shall be first.

    So Jesus is saying that the set of the saved can have two sorts:
    1. by amount given up for Jesus (others say "sequence of salvation" the disciples being first, the newly saved last)
    2. the amount of rewards when we inherit everlasting life.

    These have to be finite sets of the saved.

    Now for the last 'last' verse in the New Testament:
    Rev 22:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first & the last.

    Despite my really kool writing, I have no final 'bet' on what this means. 'Alpha and Omega' is the set of Greek letters, the first to the last (a finite set). The beginning and the end could be the first time there was something to the last time there was something - Jesus was there both times (a finite set). The first and the last seems like it is talking about eternity past from the unknown FIRST to eternity forward from now to the unknown LAST. IMHO, a mystery -- we will find out about it someday.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Matt 24 "AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days he WILL gather His elect "

    Matt 24, 1Thess 4, 1Cor 15, Rev 19, John 14 ... they are ALL speaking of the same thing -- "Christ coming again".

    It is "AFTER the tribulation" as Matt 24 says.

    Christ comes and raptures the church - taking us to Heaven "IN My Fathers house - many dwelling places -- I GO to prepare a PLACE for you"

    It is all pretty simple and obvious once man-made tradition is removed.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    That is exactly right!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. TaliOrlando

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    It wouldnt make sense though because I mean after the seventh trumpet there is so much more that would happen on earth that has to happen before the second coming. The trumpets are only the beggining of things, in my view. So if we say that the second coming happens after the 7th trumpet then we have to twist a couple of things around because the second coming happens after the or near the end of the bowls of wrath right.

    Bowls of Wrath
    First bowl Re 16:2 An ulcer upon the men with the mark of the beast.
    Second bowl Re 16:3 All life in the sea dies. Sea becomes as blood.
    Third bowl Re 16:4 River and fountains of water become blood.
    Fourth bowl Re 16:8 The sun scorches men with fire.
    Fifth bowl Re 16:10 Kingdom of the beast becomes darkness. People bite their tongues in pain.
    Sixth bowl Re 16:12 River Euphrates dries up - preparation for Armageddon.
    Seventh bowl Re 16:17 At this point in time Christ returns to earth. Re 19:14, Re 20:4
    ° Battle of Armageddon
    Re 16:16
    Re 19:11-21
    Battle of Armageddon, defeat of antichrist.
    Beast and false prophet seized and thrown into lake of fire.
    Re 19:20
    ° Satan chained
    Re 20:1-2
    Satan chained and thrown into abyss for a thousand years. Re 20:2


    So for us to conclude that the second coming is after the 7th trumphet is not that good either...
     
  20. BobRyan

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    You have picked a model for Revelation that does not work.

    The 7 churches are 7 segments spanning the 2000 years from John to the end of time.

    the 7 seals are 7 segments spanning the 2000 years from John to the end of time.

    The 7 trumpets are a bit less distinct even than the previous set of 7's - they might follow the same pattern of dividing the 2000 year span of time into seven -- or they could all have reference to the same period as the 7 plagues since they share a lot in common with them.

    Given that we have all these swaths mapping out that same 2000 year period of time - we would expect each of them to terminate with the 2nd coming.

    And they do.


    the 7 vials/bowls are all the 7 plagues at the end of time.

    There is nothing in revelation that prevents this single unified solution to the 2nd coming where the "FIRST Resurrection" John identifies and makes his focus on Rev 20 is in fact the SAME focus for resurrection that Paul has in 1Cor 15 AND in 1Thess 4 where Paul states the "Dead in CHRIST rise FIRST".

    It works perfectly.

    If anything Revelation serves to solidify this solution making it the only viable one for the NT.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, Mar 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2008

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