Question Concering The Circulation Of The Scriptures

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Sep 27, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to the gospels of Matthew and Mark, the Lord was annointed with precious ointment by a woman from a box of alabaster. On that day Jesus prophesied that,

    "Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her."

    With this prophecy in mind, please answer this question: has there been any preacher of the gospel since the days of Christ who did not have access to the record of this woman's good deed to the Savior?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,079
    Likes Received:
    103
    I see no point in pursuing this because it is a theological question posing as a historical one.
     
  3. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    The box was most probably very valuable as was the ointment. This was possibly her dowry. Mary of Bethany may have very well risked her future by this show of devotion to Jesus. But then, she had seen her own brother walk out of the grave at only HIS command.

    Scripture doesn't lie. Mary's sacrifice is known all over the world. I'm confused by what you're actually asking here tho.
     
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    RSR,

    I say that prophecy is history written in advance. Can you say "Amen" to that?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  5. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Diane,

    Jesus said that "wheresoever" the gospel was preached this deed would be made known. Therefore the idea that there might have been a time or place where the record of this event was lost to the Lord's people is unthinkable.

    Since this prophecy is found only in the books of Matthew and Mark, it compels us to believe that there was no place on earth where the gospel was preached where at least one of these gospels was not known.

    So much for the idea that some of the Lord's churches had only fragments of the gospel available to them - unless, that is, someone would like to try to build an argument that every church that had a fragment had a fragment that contained this incident.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  6. Daniel Dunivan

    Daniel Dunivan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Messages:
    374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mark,

    What about the Christian communities prior to the writings of any of the gospels (60 at the earliest!)? The text you are quoting has nothing to do with whether groups of Christians possessed a copy of a gospel--you are really reaching here! rsr is correct!

    Grace and Peace, Danny ;)
     
  7. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Danny,

    Since we know the knowledge of this incident went wherever the gospel was preached, it had to be transmitted and preserved by some method. Since we know it was written down by Matthew and Mark we know that it was transmitted through their writings.

    Do you have evidence that some of the places where the gospel was preached received this bit of gospel knowledge only in oral form? Remember that Jesus said it went in every place "wheresoever" the gospel was preached.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  8. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,079
    Likes Received:
    103
    This topic has been moved to the theology forum.
     
  9. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2002
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mark,

    Don't you think that since the disciples were with Jesus and knew of this event and of his words regarding it that they would have retold the story "wheresoever" the took the gospel message? I think this would be the case even before what we now mistakenly call the "gospels" (for there is only one gospel, the good news of the life, death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and there are four written accounts about it) were written down. Then those that the disciples taught would likewise have retold the story. Thus, Juses' words remain true.
     
  10. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    The best book I have seen on the subject is Memory and Manuscript: Oral Tradition and Written Transmission in Rabbinic Judaism and Early Christianity: With Tradition and Transmission in Early Christianity (Biblical Resource Series)
    by Eric J. Sharpe (Translator), Birger Gerhardsson, Jacob Neusner

    It can be found athttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802843662/qid=1064766400/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-4971571-0314320?v=glance&s=books

    In my opinion it is the best book on the subject.
     
  11. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    One of my reasons for introducing this in the historical section is that the fellows there were charging that I fabricated history by making historical assertions based only on prophecy. But those who say this event was transmitted only orally do the same thing. They assume that the written gospels were not generally circulated till years after the apostles and on that basis assume that this event must have been transmitted orally.

    It is theoretically possible the incident was orally transmitted, it's just that I have no evidence that it, in fact, was. I do have evidence that it was transmitted via the Scriptures; namely by the gospels of Matthew and Mark.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  12. DCK

    DCK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wasn't a part of the original debate, so I'm not sure what the problem is. It's always been held that a decade or two went by before the first gospel was written down, so there had to be a period when the stories were transmitted orally. That's a fair supposition, based on the early external evidence. I don't see anything subversive about it. That Jesus promised that the faith of Mary would be told everywhere does not necessarily require a written account.
     
  13. Daniel Dunivan

    Daniel Dunivan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Messages:
    374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly!

    Mark, why would preaching (an oral event) require a written text for its message? Even today, it is obvious that preaching, though usually relying on a written Biblical text, draws from other sources to form theology (tradition, reason, experience, culture).

    Grace and Peace, Danny [​IMG]
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Danny,

    Because the charge to a gospel preacher is to "preach the word" - not tradition, reason, experience, culture. These things may be used to illustrate the word and show how it applies to our lives, but they are not, or at least ought not to be, the basis of our preaching.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her."

    Perhaps I'm being too literal, but the text does not say that the story of the woman would necessarily be told at the same time wherever the gospel is preached, but just that it would be told at some point.

    But if I accept that they must both be preached at roughly the same time, it seems like it could be easy for someone to make God a liar by not telling of the woman. For example an atheist could travel with a boat full of people out into some remote part of the ocean and preach the gospel without mentioning the woman, making this prophecy void.
     
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Agreed that the implication is that when folks read the New Testament, this story will be repeated in all places and times. It is part of the NT just as stories of Gideon or David are from the OT.

    Not that any time the simply Gospel message is given you must be obligated to share this story.
     
  17. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is an impossibility because athiests can't preach the gospel. As Paul said, "how shall they preach accept they be sent?"

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  18. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mark, when were the gospels of Matthew and Mark written? Were they both penned on the afternoon that Jesus ascended to heaven? Were they penned the next day? Were they penned years later? If they were penned some years later, then there was a period of time in which there were no written gospels. During this time the gospel message travelled in the mouths of the apostles and other witnesses of the Lord's life. If you will think clearly about the question of when Matthew and Mark were penned, I think it will help you avoid some (what I perceive to be) false assumptions that you are making.
     
  19. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Swaimj,

    While the apostles and others who saw the Lord first hand were still living they were the "oracles" so to speak. They were the authoritative voice of truth and they authenticated their message with miraculous signs. Furthermore, there were miraculously endowed prophets raised up within the churches both to deliver and discern the message.

    But when they were dead the Scriptures became the exclusive authority for truth. Obviously, the Scriptures had to be written while these inspired men were still alive or they would not have carried authoritative weight.

    Not that the Scriptures were the sole, or even primary, method of spreading the gospel. Preaching was the primary means of spreading the message but the Scriptures were the authoritative record of the message for the churches. Without them the message preached would have been just so much hearsay.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  20. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr. Bob,

    You have captured my point precisely. It is not at all reasonable to believe that everywhere someone preached they preached about the woman's deed. God has blessed me to preach all over this country and in one foreign country and I have only ever mentioned this incident a couple of times and can't say I've ever heard anyone else preach about it.

    We don't have any record in Acts or the epistles that anyone ever mentioned this woman or her deed. The obvious ramification of Jesus words is that the record of this incident followed in all places in the world "wheresoever" the gospel went. And He didn't say that it would only happen after the Council of Carthage or after the printing press was invented.

    I just don't understand why so many people are intent on believing that God let the New Testament fall into oblivion for hundreds of years, unless it be to bolster unbiblical ideas of Catholicism, modernism, and charismaticism.

    Mark Osgatharp
     

Share This Page

Loading...