Question for Amillennialist/Postmillennialist regarding Peter's quote of Joel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jope, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. Jope

    Jope
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    In all kindness:

    Postmillennialist:
    If the entirety of Joel 2:28-32 has been fulfilled, so that the Spirit has been poured out on "all flesh" (v. 28, ESV), why would Jesus want Christians to preach the gospel of the kingdom in all the world so that the end may come (Mt. 24:14)? The Spirit should already be poured out on all flesh; what need of preaching the gospel remains?

    Amillennialist:
    Has the Spirit really been poured out on "all flesh" (Joel 2:28, ESV)?
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    All flesh.....not israel only.......worldwide....jew and gentile........acts 2. 16.....this is that
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    joel prophecy was fulgfilled partially at that time, as when Jesus returns and sets up his Kingdom upon all the earth, will be poured out upon all flesh, as all will come to Know and worship the lord and His christ!
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    Peter did not say it was partially fulfilled.....he said THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL.....

    It happened as stated in Acts 2:thumbsup:
     
  5. convicted1

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    Bingo!!!!!!!
     
  6. Jope

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    Iconoclast and convicted1, do you believe that the Spirit was poured out on "all flesh"?

    It sort of sounds like Iconoclast does from his post. Do you agree with him convicted1?

    Joel 2 ESV
    28​​​​​​​​ "And it shall come to pass afterward, ​​​​​​​that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh..."​
     
    #6 Jope, Aug 29, 2013
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  7. convicted1

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    It appears to me the "all flesh" that the Spirit is poured upon are the children of the Promised seed, else everyone is saved. This is, of course, mhho.
     
  8. Jope

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    Joel says that in the next verse:

    "Even on the male and female servants ​​​​​​​in those days I will pour out my Spirit​" (Joel 2:29, ESV). ​

    Joel distinguishes between all flesh and the servants of God, else he would've just left out the "all flesh" part.

    Wouldn't "all flesh" mean "all flesh"?

    The Theocratic Kingdom was prepared for the Gentiles (Adam), "from the foundation of the world" (Mt. 25:34, ESV). This was before the fall. God will save the Gentiles through Christ's life-giving spirit (1 Cor. 15:45), for the restoration of the Theocratic Kingdom (Psalm 86:9; Isa. 56:6-8).

    "All the nations you have made shall come ​​​​​​​and worship before you, O Lord, ​​​​​​​and shall glorify your name" (Psalm 86:9, ESV).​

     
    #8 Jope, Aug 29, 2013
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  9. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    And what, in that statement, prevents a double fulfillment?
     
  10. DrJamesAch

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    Yes, Peter said that THAT PART was spoken by Joel, but just because THAT PART was authored by Joel, does not mean that the ENTIRE PROPHECY was fulfilled. If you connect all of the "ands" in Joel 2:28-32, you would see clearly that all of this prophecy has NOT been fulfilled:

    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

    If this has been totally fulfilled, then why did Peter fail to mention the wonders in heaven? Now before you claim that "Acts shows they had fire on their heads", notice that the fire is IN HEAVEN not on earth. Why did Peter fail to mention that the sun was blacked out and the moon turned to blood?

    Also if this was a total fulfillment, then how could there be a FORMER and LATTER RAIN?? (v23).

    And, using the logic that "Peter did not say it was a partial fulfillment"; Peter did not say it was a complete fulfillment either. When Jesus quoted from Isaiah 61:1-2 in Luke 4:19-22, Jesus did not quote the entire prophecy, and even stopped in the middle of the verse, and said this day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears, but He left out the part of Isaiah 61 that said "and the day of vengeance of our God" because the day of vengeance is still future.
     
    #10 DrJamesAch, Aug 29, 2013
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  11. Iconoclast

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    Convicted 1 has given the correct response:
    The result of the Spirit being poured out was this:
    that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance



    The Spirit being poured out signified the heavenly reign has already begun....Mt Zion and Jerusalem are the heavenly reality, no longer the earthly and physical types and shadows of the true. All flesh, all nations wherever believers are found have access now to the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.

    The statement and the results seem very clear....THIS IS THAT.

    he did not say, this is part of that , or the first installment of it.

    God has sealed revelation...why would we need an additional Pentecost?
    We have been given all that pertains unto life and godliness.Jesus reigns as Lord and will return.

    When I believed in the d-pre mill teaching I did not question it too much.When you think about it...all the teachers have given us this whole idea, that we now have to re-create everything that already has taken place,as if 70 ad was just a dress rehersal and the real event has to be a take two.....we need another; temple, sacrifice, antichrist,abomination of desolation, persecution,.......the first one did it!
    learn each view it will not hurt.
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    that is a prophetic occurance many times, as the prophet would reference something immedient as being a fulfillment, but also a greater/fuller fulfillment still to come!

    Like isreal being calle dout of Egypt as the son of God, but matthew attached jesus as ultimate fulfillment, same way isaiah prophecied a sign to his times of a child being born, but ultimate fullment in jesus coming!

    And the great fulfillment of the prophet Joel would see coming to pass in Jesus second coming, as the fulness of His kingdom shall be establishedupon earth, and on all flesh!
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    the problem with that view os that the Spirit is poured out upon the house of Isreal at second coming of Christ, then they looke upon Him whom they pierced, and ALl isreal of that day are saved, a nation reborn in a single day!

    The kingdom is where its King is, and he will be on the earth to establish that!
     
  14. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    Well yes...and in rev4:1 this is not the rapture...it is John allowed to see the King on His throne in heaven...
    :thumbsup:

    The writer to hebrews tells us of the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem...and tells us that he is speaking from the throne to those on the earth-

    25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

    The problem with this idea is that no one who pierced Jesus on the cross....will be on earth when he returns...they we see him at the white throne.
     
    #15 Iconoclast, Aug 29, 2013
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  16. convicted1

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    And to add to this most wonderful post, the "great and terrible day of the Lord" has already happened.........
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    There have been several Days of the Lord in the Ot.:thumbsup:
     
  18. Jope

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    To answer the question of why Peter chose this section of Joel and said that it was fulfilled, one needs to look no further than verse 4, which tells us that the servants of God were all filled with the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 2 ESV
    4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.​

    Peter realized that Joel had prophesied that the servants of God (which is who Peter and his associates were) "in those days" (ESV) would be recipients of the Spirit of God. This is evidently distinguished from the other recipients of the outpouring of the Spirit in other millennial days: "all flesh".

    Otherwise Joel wouldn't have included "all flesh". It is redundant if the servants of God are "all flesh".

    Acts 2 NKJV, bold emphasis mine
    17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
    That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your young men shall see visions,
    Your old men shall dream dreams.
    18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
    And they shall prophesy.​​​
     
    #18 Jope, Aug 30, 2013
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  19. Jope

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    The day of the LORD is the day of the LORD's judgment.

    There has been judgments of the LORD in the past (but has there ever been "the day of the LORD" in the past?).

    The thing that makes this future day of the LORD so special, is that The Father will give judgment unto the Son (John 5:22, 27; Acts 17:31). This Son was a mystery in previous judgments of the LORD, but no longer. It is now revealed (Rom. 16:25). The Father will give judgment unto the Son after renovation and preparation (i.e., removal of wickedness: 2 Samuel 7:10; Ezek. 34:25-31). And since that Son is the one whom the elect of mankind are saved through (Eph. 1:10; John 5:26; Rev. 20:5; 1 John 5:12), the elect (be it the elect of the Jews in the tribulation or the elect Church) get to experience the blessings of God in this thousand-year-day (1 Cor. 1:8; Jer. 23:6), through redemption and judgment (cf. Rom. 5:1-11; 2 Cor. 5:10; Isa. 49:26; 59:20; Rom. 11:25-29).

    This is probably why there was a delay of the day of the LORD actually happening, though it was prophesied so many times in the past by prophets as "near" (see Isaiah 13:6 and Ezekiel 30:3, for example). In Isaiah's and Ezekiel's day God hadn't yet revealed his Son through whom redemption of mankind would be brought about. If God brought about the day of the LORD without first revealing His redemption through Christ, mankind would truly not be able to bear the judgment of the day of the LORD. No man would be able to experience the righteous judgment of the Father on Christ revealed in the thousand-year-day.

    Isaiah 13 ESV, bold emphasis mine
    9​​​​​​​​Behold, the day of the LORD comes, ​​​​​​​cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, ​​​​​​​to make the land a desolation ​​​​​​​and to destroy its sinners from it. ​​​ 10​​​​​​​​For the stars of the heavens and their constellations ​​​​​​​will not give their light; ​​​​​​​the sun will be dark at its rising, ​​​​​​​and the moon will not shed its light. ​​​ 11​​​​​​​​I will punish the world for its evil, ​​​​​​​and the wicked for their iniquity; ​​​​​​​I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, ​​​​​​​and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless. ​​​ 12​​​​​​​​I will make people more rare than fine gold, ​​​​​​​and mankind than the gold of Ophir [some will not taste death, Mark 9:1]. ​​​

    Now that Christ has risen, men can be saved through Christ. Those elect get to enjoy Christ's day (the millennium) with Him (Eph. 1:10; Mark 13:27), be they Jews (Deut. 30:3), Gentiles (Isa. 56:6-8), or the Church (2 Thess. 2:1).
     
    #19 Jope, Aug 30, 2013
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  20. percho

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    Lets say the following is next week

    Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14 ----- This is taking place on Monday September 2. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 15:15 And the same thing takes place on Tuesday September 3 After this:

    Wednesday September 4 I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:16 ------- Jesus returns and rebuilds the tabernacle of David ect.

    Thursday September 5
    That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    Thursday, Larry, Curly and Mo said looks like those folks over there are doing alright ruling with the Lord why don't we go and join them.


    Was it possible for Larry, Curly and Mo to have joined with the Lord on Monday or Tuesday even though God wasn't taking them from the Gentiles for his name?

    God was pouring out his Spirit on Monday and Tuesday on a people for his name but he had not called Larry, Curly and Mo.

    Could just whosoever line up for the Spirit on Monday and Tuesday or only;
    For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.?

    Did something change on Wednesday allowing whosoever to seek?
     

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