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Question for Calvinists

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by JIMNSC, Nov 22, 2002.

  1. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Then you will be interested in this: A Defence of Calvinism [
     
  2. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Thank you for your replies Rev G. and Russel. I do have another question. I was reading some info at www.swrb.com and I noticed that there were books that reformers of old wrote that called for the death of Jews and Anabaptists. How can I agree with what these men wrote when they called for the death of Jews and Anabaptists?

    HCL

    [ December 12, 2002, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Headcoveredlady ]
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    HCL, many "protestants" persecuted some of our forefunners. It wasn't because they were calvinists. It was because they did not understand the nature of other theological truths.
     
  4. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Preach the Word,
    I agree with what you said. But, what I am trying to say is, how can I agree with the teachings of these men when their fruits were so hideous? They were lacking in the fruits of spirit in that they were calling for the deaths of those who opposed them.

    HCL
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    HCL, those people who see the church as a part of the state, and vice versa will be more prone to use force and violence for the "cause of Christ".

    Now that Baptists are such an overwhelming majority, it would be difficult for that to happen again. Remember, we started off awfully small.
     
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    I think that you will find that this attitude was pretty common among all groups in this era of history. Before the pacifist influence of Menno Simmons, even the anabaptists called for violence against thosewho did not believe as they did. Was this right? Of course not, but it was the common viewpoint of the time, and it would be hard to find any group whose hands were not a little dirty in this regard.

    [ December 12, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  7. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Headcoveredlady said:

    How can I agree with what these men wrote when they called for the death of Jews and Anabaptists?

    First of all, I should point out that this is what is known as the ad hominem fallacy: you are attempting to argue that since people who believed in Calvinism were bad people, therefore Calvinism is bad and ought not to be believed. That is not a good argument.

    In any case, violent opposition to different beliefs was not the exclusive purview of the Reformers; it was simply a sign of the times.

    For example, in 1533, a group of Anabaptists violently occupied the city of Muenster, Germany for 18 months, declared it the "New Jerusalem," and set up a repressive regime that exiled, or even executed, any adults who refused to be rebaptized. They demanded that all residents give up their goods for redistribution equally amongst the populace (again murdering those who opposed them). They plundered other churches and monasteries. They even legalized adultery in the form of polygamy.

    Now, judging by the behaviour of certain Anabaptists, by your argument, should I not reject everything Arminian?
     
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Yes.
     
  9. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    And thus another revisionist scholar is born!
     
  10. romanbear

    romanbear New Member

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    Hi Frogman; [​IMG]
    As humbly as I can I would like to offer this in rebuttal to what you have stated below.
    quote;
    _________________________________________________________________
    Calvin presented scripture simply and plainly. We all would do good, myself included to heed the examples of these great men of God.
    _________________________________________________________________
    I'm not convinced that Calvin was all that Great as to attract my following.Since Calvinism and Catholicism are so similar (per the Catholic Church). Myself I follow the teachings of Christ only.Calvin was not perfect.Although some here might call me an Arminian. I do not believe that Armininus was perfect either.There has never been a man except for Christ that is worth following. If that offends some of you I'm sorry for that because the way I see it God is a jealous God, we start relying to much on some guy who might or might not be right we could find ourselves in trouble.What Makes Calvin anymore right than God's word?
    It's interesting how we all want to apply some other label or some doctrine on our selves along with Christian. We seem to be saying I'm not just a Christian but I'm a Calvinist or Arminian as well.Being Christian is no longer enough we want to be separate from those who's doctrine we dislike. I like the term ("Follower of Christ")or just simply ("Disciple of Christ")
    I have spoken to a couple of Rabbi's recently just to try and find out about free will and how the Jews originally thought of it. It's interesting that everyone I've talked to so far they all believe in freewill and claim that as far as they know freewill has always been in there faith.These are Messianic Rabbis that is...I found a lot of Judean Rabbi's reluctant to tell me anything.Much less even talk with me.I'd like to ask, do you believe that since all Jews are chosen to be God's people, are they all automatically saved? I realize that this Arminian/Calvinist debate is unsolvable.I think the reason gentiles have such a hard time with it is because they don't really understand the complete picture myself included.The complete picture is still eluding me. Which is why I keep searching for the complete picture.I think maybe that we have to also include the culture of Judaism as well. Know there specific holidays and feast days and know what they all meant to the Jews.We should know more about the Sabbath and when special Sabbaths were installed into there calendar.We need to know about the age of responsibility.Which Christ him self was bar-mitz-fad ("not sure of spelling")If the jews had an age of responsibility why don't Christians?
    Head coverd lady; [​IMG]
    The person who claimed that you weren't a christian was wrong.No one should go so far out on a limb as to judge the Salvation of another.The reason is we all will be judged by the same measure as we judge.Have I ever judged anyone? I certainly have and I 'm sorry for that and have repented.The safest way to determine the right road is to trust and obey God's leading.Pray and Pray like your life depends on it because it may very well depend on it. Ask God for uderstanding to know his leading and then when you have it act on it.You'll know when you have it if your dedicated to your commitment to Him.
    May God bless you; [​IMG]
    Romanbear
    Peace
     
  11. Charlie T

    Charlie T New Member

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    romanbear said:
    You would feel very comfortable with the Church of Christ folk.

    But the term "calvinist" is not to point to Calvin. All Calvinists look only to our Lord Jesus Christ. But, it is simpler to refer to the man most closely identified with the doctrine of Grace than to have to repeat the whole doctrine everytime you say it.

    Our Church of Christ brethren refuse to use common theological terms or to write out a confession of faith and thus it is impossible to really know what they believe unless you spend a lot of time talking theology with them. I think this is unproductive.

    I suggest that the use of commonly understood theological terms is a quick way to describe a complex theological idea. For example, the word "Trinity" is nowhere in scripture and is not even explicit in the Bible, but it is helpful to be able to refer to it without a long discussion each time.

    Charlie
     
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