Question for Full Preterists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Sep 5, 2010.

  1. J.D.

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    How do you understand this verse:

    Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
     
  2. Grasshopper

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  3. HankD

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    OK, I read this lengthy explanation and 12 paragraphs down the document and in several other places, the author states that the redemption of the body does not mean our individual bodies but means the redemption of the Body of Christ. Christ's Body being redeemed at the parousia for which Paul and all believers were still waiting.

    It would seem that according to the author that redeemed or believeing Israel (pre-AD70) and the regenerate Church are melded at the "parousia" (in the year AD70) and is "transformed into the glorious body of Christ" and in another place he calls it "Restored Israel" (the Body of Romans 8:23, for which at the time Paul wrote the epistle to the Romans he was still waiting) "referred to in Revelation 21 and 22".

    However the fact of the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ and several other related passages concerning the scriptural restoration of Israel are not addressed.

    Acts 1
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

    In the cross reference passage in Zechariah:

    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    Revelation 1
    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    HankD
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    It wasn't addressed because it wasn't the purpose of the article.
     
  5. Winman

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  6. HankD

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    I know. IMO it should have been included and that's why I brought to the attention of the BB participants.

    HankD
     
    #6 HankD, Sep 6, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  7. Grasshopper

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    Not sure why a commentary on Romans should be expected to deal with Acts 1 and Rev 1.
     
  8. HankD

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    Also other passages are ignored by Frost showing that we don't have to wait until the resurrection or the preterist so-called AD70 "parousia" because we are NOW the sons of God.

    The "body" being addressed here is clearly our resurrected bodies for which we are waiting:

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

    Also in keeping with the context of Romans 8

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    ...
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.​

    What else could Paul be speaking of if not our mortal flesh and blood bodies?​

    Following through with the Frost logic in light of Romans 8, it would seem all believers took on immortality in AD70.​

    What then of all believers to follow.​

    Here is another question related to the Romas 8:23 question:​

    If all is fullfilled by AD70, when did the following event happen?​

    1 Thessalonians
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    If all has been fullfiled then presumably this has already happened and preumably AD70 was the point in time as well as the Romans 8:23 event.​

    Again, if all is fiullfilled in AD70 what then of those believers such as we the 21st century believers?​

    If the "last day" has come and gone by AD70 what hope do we have?​

    John 6
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

    Just what component of the believers did Christ "raise up" at the "last day?

    It seems to me that full preterists do not believe in the bodily resurrection of the modern believer and in fact, we have no certain Scripture of the future of any believer after the "parousia" in light of John 6 having been fullfilled in AD70.​

    Perhaps some full preterist could address this issue?​


    Thanks
    HankD​
     
    #8 HankD, Sep 6, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  9. Grasshopper

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    HankD,

    Is Zech. 14 describing the second coming?

    Does 2nd Peter 3 describe the second coming?

    Why is Jerusalem attacked in Zech. 14?
     
  10. HankD

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    Well grasshopper, why not?

    Because he indeed quotes from and deals with passages from Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Hosea, Joel, Ezekiel, Psalms, Hebrews and as a matter of fact the Book of Revelation, and in particular Revelation 21:1-4.

    I realize that no one is under any constraint to include or exclude whatever Scripture they please to prove a point, on the other hand
    there is no rule that I know of which precludes comparing Scripture with Scripture especially in a debate and this is a debate forum.


    HankD
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    If Sam Frost were on this board, Im sure he would oblige you. I'm not sure he had this forum in mind when writing that article.
     
  12. HankD

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    I have said before that I am not a "cookie cutter" dispensationalist.
    So my view probably doesn't exactly line up with some of the popular commentators.

    The Day of the Lord is that period of time which the Lord Himself rules and reigns directly over the affairs of men on earth in His glorified resurrected body.

    In my view it spans the Tribulation and includes the Millenium.

    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

    Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.​

    In my view, The Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation, the Second Coming, the Millenium and the Final Conflagration.

    My own personal belief is that Zechariah 14 happens just before the millenium begins and Israel is delivered from destruction when Jesus "returns" to the Mount of Olives, causing a rift which expands the valley of Megeddo to Jerusalem providing a way of escape while He Himself does battle with the Nations of the world. This is the Second Coming which is at the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

    Then The Day of the Lord ends with 2 Peter 3:10-13 from whence we will enter the eternal state in the new heavens and new earth.​

    HankD
     
    #12 HankD, Sep 6, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  13. HankD

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    OK but the inquiry was made of the preterist view concerning Romans 8:23, you gave a URL of his Sam Frost's writings.

    presumably this meant you were in agreement with him and therefore his views were fair game as representative of your own.

    If this is not so then answer the inquiry directly with your own views or put his views in your own words and we can debate them.

    HankD
     
  14. lastday

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    Lastday

    Winman and HankD,
    Preterists explain that "waiting for the adoption of our bodies", i.e., "the redemption of our bodies" refers to the New
    Covenant by which we became members of the Body of Christ. Rom.8:23. But Paul speaks of this as "our hope".

    In God's mind have we already been "glorified" - edoxasen - aorist indicative - past tense. The hope that our bodies of flesh will be glorified must continue as long as we "groan within these bodies of flesh...while waiting for the adoption
    and the manifestation of the sons of God"!

    I think I see why Asterisktom could be sucked into Preterism since he had not known what we know before he met you guys on BB. We believe in the resurrection of a
    body of flesh, without blood, because Jesus referred to His resurrected body of flesh that was "seen and was touchable". And we know ours also will be "without blood because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". It seems impossible for him to accept or even dispute these facts!!

    To verify these words coming from him, you can go to my thread on "The Sign of the Son of Man":
    Friends, my father, a Wesleyan Methodist minister, taught me at the age of
    10, 80 years ago, that I could "know I had eternal life because of Romans
    8:23-30 where, in God's sight, those who are justified are also glorified with the certain hope of receiving the "adoption...the redemption of our bodies". It
    is difficult for me to understand how a learned expositor of Scripture hadn't
    heard that "flesh and blood is different than flesh-and-bones". Do you have
    any idea of how his explanation of the lack of knowledge makes any sense?!!!
    Mel
     
    #14 lastday, Sep 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2010
  15. J.D.

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  16. J.D.

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    The author of this work makes some good points but I couldn't find his definition of adoption supported in any lexicon or in any context.

    His definition:
    "Adoption is a definite act of God whereby God sets a goal for the believer."

    Lexicon (Perschbacher): uίoqesian acc. sg. f. n. of uίoqesia :
    Adoption, a placing in the condition of a son
    Thayer:
    1) adoption, adoption as sons
    a) that relationship which God was pleased to establish between himself and the Israelites in preference to all other nations
    b) the nature and condition of the true disciples in Christ, who by receiving the Spirit of God into their souls become sons of God
    c) the blessed state looked for in the future life after the visible return of Christ from heaven
     
  17. HankD

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    In my studies I have found this is to be more of a legal term, in the sense that when a male family member comes of age then he is brought forth (according to a the various semite cultural ceremonies) and judicially declared a family member.

    That is, it is not as if we were not children by birth but that we have not come to full age (the resurrection of the body of the believer).

    Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
    2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
    3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
    4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
    6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
    7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.​

    To be honest it does have an element of credibility for Frosts' view of Romans 8:23 but only if it is taken out of its context of the resurrection in Romans 8:11.

    Romans 8
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.​

    HankD
     
    #17 HankD, Sep 7, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2010
  18. Winman

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    Well, from what I understood, he is saying that adoption is "coming of age", when a son was no longer under caretakers and assumed full responsibility as an adult. What I thought was very helpful is that he pointed out we don't receive adoption until our bodies are redeemed.

    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    I agree with that author that his is a great hope we have to look forward to, I can't wait to get rid of this sinful flesh and be like Christ.

    Here is what he actually said and the example he gave to explain Adoption.

     
    #18 Winman, Sep 7, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2010
  19. RAdam

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    I think this sufficiently proves that to be a perterist you have to monkey around with clear language in scripture.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    1. Am I wrong in remembering numerous times you using 2 Peter 3 as a second coming text?

    2. You must believe in 2 "last days" because 2 Peter says this:


    2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,


    Will there also be another "last days" at the end of the MK?


    Why would Peter say this:


    2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


    No one hearing this in Peter's day nor anyone who lives during the Church Age would be looking for such things. They will all be gone 1000 years earlier at worst.


    This view holds other problems too numerous to get into. I don't think you could really defend this view if push came to shove. I do salute you for dealing with the obvious problem of having Zech 14 and 2 peter 3 referring to the same event though I'm not sure you saw it until recently


    You didn't answer the question as to why Jerusalem will come under attack in Zech 14:


    Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


    How do you interpret Is 24 in light of that question:

    Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
    Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
    Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.


    The Resurrection is still the hardest for me to grasp. It is why I don't spend near as much time on that subject as I do the others. Frost's view makes the most sense to me and is somewhat understandable to me when I hear him teach on it. Trying to explain it is much more difficult for me (limited IQ) so I point to his works when people wish to understand it from a FP view. If you really want to understand his teachings on this, scroll down on the left hand side and listen to the Romans Series and 2 Cor. 5 lectures: http://charlescoty.com/Audio2.html
     

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