question for non-calvinists

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by paul hadik, Nov 29, 2001.

  1. paul hadik

    paul hadik
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    those of you who hold to the idea that man must chose for or against God in determining his eternal fate: how to you answer the question concerning those who never hear the message of the gospel? Before you start talking about consciences and Romans 1 remember the Bible is also clear that faith comes by hearing through the Word of God.
    In denying God's sovereign election you now must address the issue of God's basic fairness toward those in other areas of the word who have (for whatever reason) been denied access to God's word.

    paul
     
  2. Brian

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    Calvinist or not no man comes to the Father but by the son. Non-Calvinists state that after hearing the word and being convicted by the Holy Spirit we can choose to accept or reject. The calvinist states that by hearing the Gospel the Holy Spirit irresitably draws the predestined to salvation. To never hear the gospel and be given the opportunity would be non-election to the calvinist and cause for evangelism to the non-calvinist. I don't think anyone (Christian) can really believe that with out accepting Christ as savior eternity will be spent anywhere else but Hell. Regardless of thier ability to choose or not.
     
  3. Brian

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    A question back for clarity what do you mean by 'Gods basic fairness'?
     
  4. rlvaughn

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    Can't speak for Paul, but here's the idea I have:
    It seems that a number of people object to the idea of unconditional election because it would not be "fair" for God to choose some and not choose others, without giving them a choice. But here the question is turned back to those people - is it fair that God allows some to have "easy access" to the gospel message, while others may go a lifetime and never hear the gospel?
     
  5. paul hadik

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    Brian:

    now fair is fair....answer mine first...
    to say that not hearing is a cause for evangelism still leaves the question. Those who have died through the ages without hearing are they being given a fair chance to choose or reject God's plan?
    To the Calvinist mind we have no problem with God showing mercy on whom He will and not showing mercy on others (not a particularly tasty doctrine but how many of them are?).
    Under the mindset of man choosing or rejecting than you have to address God's not being fair to those who never hear. (i use the word 'fair' for I keep hearing that under Calvinism God is not fair in choosing some but not choosing others)
    ok your turn. original question still stands

    paul
     
  6. Brian

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    The simple answer is this no Gospel no salvation.
     
  7. Brian

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    If calvin had put forth the idea that those who hear the Gospel were uncondionally elected and then saved by thier acceptnce of that election I would be Calvinist.

    To apply our human concept of fairness to God though is simply silly.
     
  8. rlvaughn

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To apply our human concept of fairness to God though is simply silly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree, but it seems that many Arminians ARE applying this concept, and rejecting the doctrines of grace from an emotional reaction that somehow God is not being fair.
     
  9. paul hadik

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    rl:

    am in total agreement with you. you have seen where I was headed with this.

    Brian.

    you are completely correct in saying that we are foolish to assign our understanding of fairness to God. Yet in the couple weeks I have followed this board I have been amazed at how viciously those who hold to Calvinistic ideas are treated. Mainly we are reminded that God is horribly unfair because He dares to elect some and not others. We simply put the whole matter into the hands of the King of the Universe and treat everyone as among the elect for evangelism's sake.
    When you say that where there is no gospel there is no salvation than you must question how can those people be fairly damned for eternity if they never had the chance to make this eternal choice.
     
  10. Pioneer

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    I do not judge doctrinal beliefs on whether or not it is "fair" but I do judge doctrinal beliefs on whether or not there is a correct interpretation of scripture.

    There are so many phrases in the scriptures (like "whosever will", "all men", the whole world", ect) that contradict Calvinism that a person would have to blattantly ignore them in order to believe that Calvinism is true.
     
  11. Brian

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    When you say that where there is no gospel there is no salvation than you must question how can those people be fairly damned for eternity if they never had the chance to make this eternal choice.

    No being smart but for me there is no 'must question' here. That's the way it is. If you want to question fair why was I born with a need for salvaion in the first place? I didn't have any choice in that did I? No option to not have a sin nature. In human terms it isn't 'fair'
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    ignore those empty quotes I was playing with buttons on the edit page.
    [ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Brian ]

    [ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Brian ]
     
  12. Michael Wrenn

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    Paul,

    I have addressed that several times on this board, but I'll do it again. Arminians and Quakers believe that the Light of Christ is in every human and that those who never hear the gospel will be judged on the use they make of the light they have. Romans Chapter 2 supports this belief.
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    One of the most misinterpreted passage of scripture is John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    What does this scripture mean to everyone on this post and how does each one of you interpret this scripture?... I will give you my thoughts on this later... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  14. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:
    Can't speak for Paul, but here's the idea I have:
    It seems that a number of people object to the idea of unconditional election because it would not be "fair" for God to choose some and not choose others, without giving them a choice. But here the question is turned back to those people - is it fair that God allows some to have "easy access" to the gospel message, while others may go a lifetime and never hear the gospel?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Another question which should cause Arminians to pause is this:

    All Evangelicals believe that when Christ returns, the chance for repenting and believing is over. No more time for anyone to "decide for Christ" if they haven't already. How can this be? For God to determine a time in which he will return and cease the time for many - millions - from hearing the gospel requires salvation to be of divine perogative, election in God's own choice and time, God choosing to not make salvation available to all.
     
  15. paul hadik

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    Michael:

    sorry, still new around here. Do you hold to this position? Do you believe then that there is more than one way to God? also how do you interpret Romans 3 saying that no one uses this "light" to seek after God?

    paul
     
  16. Pioneer

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
    All Evangelicals believe that when Christ returns, the chance for repenting and believing is over. No more time for anyone to "decide for Christ" if they haven't already. How can this be? For God to determine a time in which he will return and cease the time for many - millions - from hearing the gospel requires salvation to be of divine perogative, election in God's own choice and time, God choosing to not make salvation available to all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    First of all, I am not an evangelical, I am a fundamentalist.

    Second of all, those that truly understand eschatology according to the scriptures know that during the tribulation period, all those who have never heard the gospel will have a chance to be saved because of the preaching of the 144,000 sealed servants of God.

    Third of all, salvation is not "a decision" it is a conversion, and this conversion takes place when a person realizes that he is lost and on his way to hell, repents of his sin, and places his faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to save him.

    Fourth and last of all, the reason why you cannot see the truth of the scriptures is because you are interpreting scripture according to Calvinistic doctrine. You do not let the scriptures speak for themselves.
     
  17. superdave

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    Originally Stated by Pioneer
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I do not judge doctrinal beliefs on whether or not it is "fair" but I do judge doctrinal beliefs on whether or not there is a correct interpretation of scripture.
    There are so many phrases in the scriptures (like "whosever will", "all men", the whole world", ect) that contradict Calvinism that a person would have to blattantly ignore them in order to believe that Calvinism is true.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I do not judge doctrinal beliefs on whether or not it is "fair" but I do judge doctrinal beliefs on whether or not there is a correct interpretation of scripture.

    There are so many phrases in the scriptures ("...he also did predestinate..."-Rom 8:29-30 "...according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"-Eph 1:11, et. al.) that contradict non-Calvinism that a person would have to blattantly ignore them in order to believe that non-Calvinism is true.


    **I inserted the references so y'all could check these phrases "in context"
     
  18. Pioneer

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by superdave:
    I do not judge doctrinal beliefs on whether or not it is "fair" but I do judge doctrinal beliefs on whether or not there is a correct interpretation of scripture.

    There are so many phrases in the scriptures ("...he also did predestinate..."-Rom 8:29-30 "...according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"-Eph 1:11, et. al.) that contradict non-Calvinism that a person would have to blattantly ignore them in order to believe that non-Calvinism is true.

    **I inserted the references so y'all could check these phrases "in context"
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What did God predestinate in Rom 8:29? That we should be conformed to the image of his Son. This has to do with our being like Christ and living godly in this present evil world and does not offer any support to your doctrinal beliefs. Sorry, your analogy doesn't hold water.

    [ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]
     
  19. JAMES2

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    The subject at hand is: "question for non-calvinists."

    Here is my question: For those of you who do not believe that salvation is completely, totally, absolutely, utterly beyond the "choice" of man and relies completely, totally, absolutely, utterly on ANOTHER -- GOD ALONE!!!!.....the

    QUESTION IS; Since you say that the atonement made it POSSIBLE for EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION to "accept" or "reject" salvation based on their "free choice" why do some accept and others reject?

    Since, as you advocate, each person is equally drawn to the Father, does the one that "accepts" the offer have a right to boast that they saved themselves based on their "free choice"? If so, where does the FREE GIFT from God come in?
     
  20. superdave

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    Pioneer,
    I noticed you haven't touched the second one. The first one is weak, or at least unclear, I will admit. Here are a few more

    Rom 11:7 (talking specifically about Israel's predestination to unbelief)
    "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the elect hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

    I Peter 1:2
    "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience (just as in Romans 8) and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"
    **Very clear reference to Salvation!

    Gal 1:6
    "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel"

    Eph 1:5
    "Having predestinated us unto the ADOPTION (emphasis mine) of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    To the Praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    In whom we have redemtion through his blood the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
    Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    Having made known unto us the mystery of his wll according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself"

    2 Tim 1:9
    "Who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began"

    These verses are not talking about obedience, they are talking about Salvation itself.
     

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