Question for post-trib'ers

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Rich_UK, Apr 22, 2004.

  1. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    I'm confused on the issue of when the rapture will take place. Both Pre-tribbers and Post-tribbers put forward some good points...(I don't pay no heed to Mid-tribbers [​IMG] ) ...

    Can a post tribber answer me this please...

    If the rapture is to take place at the end of the 7 year trib, then why would it be a surprise to anyone?..For instance, Jesus says that we won't know the day or the hour....but if it's going to be at the end of the 7 year trib, then it won't really be a surprise at all because it will be 3 and a half years after the abomination of desolation won't it? give or take a day, people will be able to gage pretty accurately the time of the rapture?...if I'm wrong in my understanding, can someone please correct me and give me their understanding....I've always been a pre-tribber but some post-trib interpretations seem pretty valid...I'm just a bit stuck on this issue. Thanks
    Rich :cool:
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    What is interesting here is that most
    pretribualtion rapturists believe there will
    be a rapture and it's accompaning
    resurrection at the end of the Tribulaition
    Period Judgement. The Posties are in fact
    Post-tribulation ONLY rapturists.

    If the pretribulation rapture took place
    today among the probably 2,000 Million
    nominal Christians on earth there would be,
    what maybe 400 Million Raptured?

    Say instead they go into Tribualtion Period
    Judgement like the Posties say.
    The only ones who will survive
    saved the Jewish Israeli elect saints
    protected probably in Petra will be
    the ones the forces of Antichrist overlooked.
    So maybe 20,000 get raptured at the
    rapture/resurrection at the end of the
    Tribulation period judgement.

    Sorry, seems the pretribulation rapture is
    the only one worth having.

    ----------------------
    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.


    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 10 Jan 2004;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised before
    the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    Thanks Brother Ed.
    Firstly let me say that I agree with you on your article and am so far to be convinced otherwise. I did state that I find the posties have some valid points in some cases but personally I have always found the pre-trib view to be far more plausible.

    I would like a post-trib viewpoint though on my question regarding the abomination of desolation and being able to guage accurately enough the time of the rapture (3 and a half years later).. if it does indeed take place at the end of the 7 year trib.

    Thanks brother Ed for your article though.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Sorry to invade your space.
    I thought i'd mention our type I postie
    only visits here about every other week-end
    (no, this isn't the week end :( ).
    There are bunch of middie and prewrathites
    around. The Type II posties should be
    by any time now.

    Type I postie - pre-millennial
    Type II postie - a-millennial

    Ed's quick quide:

    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib pre-mill outline:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- you are here
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    5. new heaven & new earth

    [​IMG]
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Rich_UK,

    Simple, please look to Matt. 24:29-31 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3 talk about the timing of Christ's coming.

    Later, I will type more details with verses to prove why I do believe Christ will come again after tribulation.

    By the way, I have one question for you:

    Please show me where ONE verse in the Bible saying Rapture will be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier BEFORE Christ's coming?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    I will when you show me just one verse that says the rapture will occur after the 7 year tribulation.

    Hint - Scripture does not say. It is a matter of theology that one believes in pretrib or posttrib.
     
  7. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    Am I correct in thinking that the following verse is regarding the 3 and a half year point of the tribulation when the antichrist will desecrate the temple....

    Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
    Dan 12:13 But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."


    If so, then this means that we have the exact amount of days until Christ comes (Ie: literal second coming) as if this is pertaining to that period of time, then Christ would hardly come as a thief when we knew the very day.

    I could be wrong though. Please feel free to correct me folks if I am. Like I said, I'm not 100% certain regarding this stuff.

    Richard
     
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    You are correct Richard.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    DD,

    I asked, show me where one verse in the Bible saying rapture will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before the second advent.

    Please read at 'Which Coming?' I given 46 lists of verses, telling me which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or His 3rd?
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Richard,

    Dan. 12:11-13 saying nothing about the coming seven year of tribulation period or caught up either. Dan. 12:11-13 speaks of Christ fulfilled it through Calvary, same with Dan. 9:24-27.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  11. Kiffin

    Kiffin
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    Most Non Premill Post tribers such as myself do not believe in a 7 year tribulation. My basic belief regarding all this is,

    1. Jesus Christ is Coming
    2. We Don't know when
    3. Be Ready
     
  12. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    Kiffin, when do you feel that the bowl, seal judgements etc, will take place?...deafposttrib...I fail to see how Daniel 12:11-13 refers to Christ at calvary. How did you come to that conclusion?
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Richard,

    Daniel 12:11 says, "And the time that the daily sacrifice shall be TAKEN AWAY, and the abomination that maketh desolate set, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

    Jesus Christ is the one person who put the daily sacrifices to end by Calvary. He fulfilled the prophecies of the Old testament, include Dan. 9:24-27.

    Christ said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will raise it up." - John 2:19.

    They were not understand what Christ was talking about. They told him, that building of temple was builted for 46 years, but three days - impossible. John 2:21 - Christ spoken of his body as temple, that he shall raise it up in three days - resurrection.

    Christ already destroyed temple by Calvary. He said, "It is finished" - John 19:30. When after Christ yelled, and he gave up his soul, at the same time, the veil of the temple was tore down from top to bottom - Mark 15:37-38. It shows us, that God ended the daily sacrifices through calvary.

    Jesus Christ allowed Romans destroyed the building of the temple in year 70 A.D. Christ does not need daily sacrifices and the bulding of the temple, because Christ is the temple.

    Dan. 12:11 tells us, He shall put them to end after 1290 days. Shows that he fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament after his three years of his ministry.

    How does I know Christ's ministry was over three years?

    Jesus and his disciples observed passover feast three times - three years find in John 2:13; John 6:4; and 13:1.

    Dan. 9:26-27 tell us, after 69th week, Christ was cut off by Calvary. He fulfilled Daniel 70th Week in the midst of the week by the Calvary. Christ ended the daily sacrifices, and He destroyed temple, by allowed Romans invaded Jerusalem in year 70 A.D.

    Dan. 12:11-13 telling us, that Christ already ended the daily sacrifices by calvary after his three years of ministry.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  14. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    Deaf post trib, you need to study a bit better my friend. If you read the rest of daniel 12, (The context) then you will see that it is not AT ALL refering to what Christ would later do on the cross.

    Dan 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

    The time of trouble is refering to the tribulation. Daniel 12:7 says...... Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished....

    This is refering to the 3 and a half years...the second hald of the tribulation known as the Great tribulation. I'm sure you've been indoctrinated otherwise, but you won't convince me otherwise. This chapter of Daniel is certainly not refering to Christ's atonement on calvary.
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Daniel chapter 12 is not in chronological order.

    Dan. 12:1a speaks of future 3 1/2 great tribulation. Dan. 12:1b speaks of future general judgment day - the only ONE future judgement day. Dan. 12:2 speaks of future ONE resurrection both unjust and just refer to John 5:27-29. Dan. 12:3 speaks of righteosuness saints shall have eternal life. Dan. 12:3 halts speak about the end time. Dan. 12:4 tells us, the angel told Daniel to shut the book, no one understand the prophecy things, till the time shall come, as the world changing, as the technology increasing faster, and more people shall understand the prophecy about the end times.

    Dan. 12:5-9, I believe it speaks about Messiah shall put our sins to end by calvary. Daniel, himself do not understand what these are talking about. I believe some of us are understanding now, these were fulfilled by make mansifest to us through Calvary to understand the mystery.

    Dan. 12:10 speaks of two groups - 'wise' & 'wicked', many shall be purified and made WHITE, and tried. Halt for now. My understanding of verse 10 is not talking about future 3 1/2 years of tribulation period and the persecutions. I believe verse 10 speaks of individuals are commanded to be pured and be holy and to be sanctify from the world and wicked thing, also, we are testing through our faith to built our relationship with Christ to make us white and pure. The last part of verse 10 tell us, wicked shall continue do wicked things, none of wicked people understand, but the wise shall understand. My understanding of verse 10 speak of people who are natural man of 1 Cor. 2:14, do not understand God's things, because they do not want to know the truth, and remain in their wicked ways. But, we are wise and received God's Word, He gave us wisdom and understand the spiritual things - 1 Cor. 1:30; 2:12.

    How shall we understand of God's thing - Dan. 12:5-7? Dan. 12:11-13 shows us, that it already fulfilled through Calvary, so, we can understand the mystery of God. - Romans 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:9-10; and Colossians 1:26-27. Dan. 12:11-13 is very obivously refer to Dan. 9:24-27 speak about Calvary.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  16. brumleyj

    brumleyj
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    i argee with deafposttrib amem preach it. daniel 9 chatper is speaking messiah is on the cross. dainel 12:1-3 is speaking of ressurecction/judgment daniel 12:4-13 is speaking of the end time. daniel 7:19-26 is speaking of antichrist. i urge everyone read daniel help you more better understand what daniel is talking about.

    brumleyj
    ps27:1
    amem
     
  17. brumleyj

    brumleyj
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    opps im mistanding of dainel 7:19-26 let me make clear it to you.

    dainel 7:26 speaking of antichrist shall regina d persecute aganist saints, Daniel 7:25 the saints shall take away, antichrist regina nd they shall victory over anitchrist in the great tribulation.

    dainel 7:27 saints will victory at end of the tribualtion and will regin with christ for everlasting kindgom, who these saints serve and obey him.

    daniel 7:9-10 is speaking of great white judgment

    dainel 9:24-27 is speaking messiah is on calvery.

    forigve me for mistanding of daniel 9 and 7.

    brumleyj
    ps27:1
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    I see great pretrib reluctance to
    even acknowledge that these questions were
    asked. :confused:
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    we all agree on Matt 24:36,42 tell us, no person knows what day and hour when Christ comes, only God, the Father knows. Matt 24:36,42 does not make pretrib proof.

    Early Christians were expecting Christ might come anytime in their lifetime, but it does not make them pretrib. Because they never hear of two phases of the second advent. It was not yet exist till 19th Century. Even, they believed that they will have to face persecutions and Antichrist first before Christ comes. Also, they believed the only one future coming of Christ.

    Matt 24:36,42 context with verse 29-31 tell us, Christ shall come after the tribulaiton, but we do not know when Christ shall come. We can do is be watch and be ready all the times - Rev. 3:2.

    We do not know when we will die - heart attack, car accident, shot, etc.. we must always be prepared for to face the judgement day all the time, not know when we die, or Lord comes. We must always be ready all the time.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    DeafPosttrib: "it does not make them pretrib. Because they never hear of two phases of the second advent. It was not yet exist till 19th Century."

    Actually, the two phases of the second coming
    is described in the Holy Scripture.

    7 each 360 day years are 2520 days.
    2520 is the smallest number which can
    be divided evenly by all one digit
    numbers.

    1 x 2520 = 2520
    2 x 1260 = 2520
    3 x 840 = 2520
    4 x 630 = 2520
    5 x 504 = 2520
    6 x 420 = 2520
    7 x 360 = 2520
    8 x 315 = 2520
    9 x 280 = 2520

    [​IMG]
     

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