Question for post-trib'ers

Ed,

Please show me verses in the Bible to support two phases of the second coming.

What these numbers stand for?? What's your point of these numbers for???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Please show me verses in the Bible to support two phases of the second coming.

</font>[/QUOTE]I risk censure from the board
for continually repeating the same post.
Repeating the post is against the rules.
Nevertheless, because you asked:

----------------------------------------

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44
Mark 13
Luke 21
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-19
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

-----------------------------------
Do you want the words as well as the addresses?

 

What these numbers stand for?? What's your point of these numbers for???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen! </font>[/QUOTE]Use your BASIC math. You look up in your Bible. 3 1/2 years = 1260 days. Another verse said 3 1/2 years = 1260 days.

1260 + 1260 = 2520 days - 7 years between the Rapture and 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.

360 days per 1 year.

360 days X 7 years = 2520 days.

7 years Tribulation between the Rapture and 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ!!!!!

 

Askjo,

Please show me where verse to prove it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,

you inteprets 2 Thess. 2:1 into two events because of word, 'and'.

Actually, Paul telling us, we shall be gathering together AT THE Lord's coming.

Our gathering together cannot be occur yet TILL Christ comes first - 1 Thess. 4:15.

Titus 2:13 is not talking about escape from the coming 7 year Tribulation period, it talks about our hope is eternal life - Titus 1:2; 2:13; and 3:7.

You intepreting verses into two events because of word- 'and'.

Actually, 'and' does not always meaning separate time, or place. And often meaning goes together or adding else, also, to continue the sentence or grammar.

You still often telling us Matt. 24:31 is 'pretrib' rapture. First, I do agree with you of verse 31 speaks of our gathering together is rapture. Most pretribbers in this forum do not agree with you that Matt 24:31 is rapture. Also, you keep on breaking the hermenuetic rule - Intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY. Matt. 24:31 does not separate from verse 29 and 30. The context of Matt 24:29-31 clearly tell us, our gathering together shall be occur right AFTER the tribulation. NO way that you able to find a verse anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24 telling us, Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation. The context of Matthew chapter 24 focus on the only ONE future coming of Christ AT THE end of the world.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Careful there Brother DeafPosttrib.
Remember: Revelation 22:18 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.

 

I do not added unto God's Word. I understand clear what verses are talking about. No way, I can add or remove them. I leave them alone. I honor God's Word 100%. Amen.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

p.s. by the way, I flee from post #666 EEK!!!

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, i'll still hope in the pretribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

Many Christians use Luke 21:36 to prove that we shall escape from the coming seven year of Tribulation period is the evidence of pretrib.

But, Luke 21:36 is NOT unconditional. Christ tells us, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS..." OR in other word, IF we do NOT watch and not pray, we shall stand FACE before the Son of man! FOr what? Judgment day!!!

Rev. 2:5 - "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; OR else I will come unto thee quickly, and will REMOVE thy candlestick OUT OF HIS PLACE, except thou REPENT." Christ warns us, IF we do not repent, He shall come upon us quickly, and remove us out of his place, that mean, He might REMOVE our name out of the book of life!

Rev. 3:3 - "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and HOLD FAST, and REPENT. IF therefore thou shalt NOT watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

Christ warns us, IF we do not hold fast and repent, and watch, He shall come upon us as thief in the night.

Luke 21:28 does not prove us that we shall escape from the coming "seven years of tribulation period". But, Christ commands us, WATCH and PRAY because we all shall face the judgement seat of Christ at Christ's coming. If we do NOT watch and pray, He shall come upon us as theif in the night for what? cast us into 'outer darkeness' - Matt 24:48-51; and 25:26-30 - everlasting punishment!!

"the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it." - Matt 16:18 speak of Satan and the enemies cannot destroy Christ's church. Throughout centuries, satan and the enemies persecuted and war against Christ's church, Satan tries to destroy Christ's church. But, Satan failed all the time. Church already have its foundation base on Christ as rock. Church never be destroy throughout all ages - Eph. 3:21.

Oh come on!

Notice, word, 'caught up' is not find anywhere in the book of Revelation. Does that mean, Rapture is excluded from the book of Revelation?

There is NO difference between resurrection and rapture. Rapture cannot be occur yet TILL after resurrection occured first - 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

Rev. 13:7,10, & 14:12 obivously telling us, the saints shall be present on the earth. No verse anywhere in Revelation saying there are NO saint left on earth by the time Christ comes to earth.

1 Thess 4:17 says, "Then we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up..." Obivously, it tells us, some Christians will be alive and REMAIN on earth TILL Christ comes - 1 Thess 4:15.

"The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTILLLL the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn," - Matt. 13:28b-30.

Christ tells us, unbelievers cannot separate from the believers. Both are growing together over the world right now, it will be continue TILL at the end of the world, WHEN Christ shall come with his angels, angels shall gathering all unbelievers and finally separate from the believers.

Obivously, believers will be present on earth ALL the way TILL the end of the world come. That would be at Lord's coming - Matt 24:29.

Matt. 24:40-41 tells us, believers shall be present ON the earth till Christ comes, then unbelievers shall be take away from the believers same with Matt 13:49.

1 Thess 5:9 -Amen! We shall never suffer the wrath of God, because we obtain the salvation of Jesus Christ. Wrath is for send people to everlasting fire, who reject and disobey Christ - 2 Thess. 1:7-9. We are not appoint for the wrath of God - 1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9. But, 1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us, we are appointed for tribulations. Because Christ suffered on the cross for us, so, therefore, we ought follow Christ's example - Luke 9:23; and 1 Peter 2:21.


Ed,

You keep on separate Matt 24:31 from ver 29-30 all the times. Again, and again, I told you, you keep on break the hermenuetic rule - intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY!. Matt 24:31 does NOT separate from verse 29-30!! Our gathering together cannot be occur yet TILL Christ comes AFTER tribulation - Matt 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27.

Rev. 4:1 is not talking about Christ's coming. Neither, it say about gathering together, or resurrection either. Rev. 4:1 tells us, that John, himself was called by the angel, for come up('come hither') and to show him to see the future things same with Rev. 17:1; and Rev. 21:9 too.

2 Thess. 2:3 - 'falling away' is not rapture. 'Falling away' in Greel word is Apostasia #646 defines, depart from the faith, depart from the truth. All different dictionaries on 'falling away' does not support the idea meaning of rapture. Fall means down opposite of UP. Rapture is UP opposite of down.

2 Thess 2:1-3 tell us, our gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we must see two things come to past first - falling away(apostasy) and the revelaed of Antichrist. So, therefore, 2 Thess 2:3 cannot speak of pretrib doctrine clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Please show me where verse to prove it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen! </font>[/QUOTE]Use your BASIC math!!!!

1260 days -- Rev. 11:3
1260 days -- Rev. 12:6
-----------
2520 days TOTAL

2520 days divide 360 days per year = 7 years!!!!

1260 days -- 3 1/2 years
1260 days -- 3 1/2 years
-------------------------
2520 days -- 7 years

 

Askjo,

these numbers as you present to me, do not prove the timing of rapture. Neither of these support pretrib rapture.

You need a clear verse to prove us, it saying our caught up/gathering together shall be either 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming, please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:
This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

 

Ed,

I will reply back to you tomorrow morning.

In Christ'Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Click here: Pre-Trib

 

Askjo,

I already read Dr. Thomas Ice's site before. I asking you to prove verse in the Bible saying rapture will be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier BEFORE Christ's coming?

By the way, I already sent email to Dr. Thomas Ice three times, first, I sent email to him 3 years ago, showed him the comparing of Matthew 24:29-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17, because Dr. Thomas is co-author with Tim LaHaye. LaHaye showed the chart of the comparing of John 14:1-3 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17. I told him, I agree with LaHaye's chart. I asked him, how about the comparing of Matt 24:29-31. He refuses to discuss with me. I received email from him once. I sent him another third email last year, after that I haven't receive email from him. He seems ignore me, do not want to debate with me. So, I leave him alone. Brumleyj did read forward email, that I sent it to Dr. Thomas.

You are the responsible to study the Bible by yourself - 2 Timothy 2:15, not depend on any authors, commentary. Adk the Holy Spirit for to guide you to understand the Bible better.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

If you don't believe in 7 years tribulation between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming of Christ, you simply deny what the Bible teaches.

Most posttribs denied:
1. Dispensationalism
2. Between the Church and Israel
3. The Nature and Purpose of Tribulation period
4. The Doctrine of Imminence
5. Any future Fulfillment to the Prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27.
6. The interpretation
7. The Holy Spirit and the Tribulation.

 

Askjo,

No, that is not true. I do not agree with any men's teaching of pretribulationism doctrine. - Col. 2:8. Early Church taught that the gathering together shall be AT Christ's coming at once. None of them teach two phases of Christ's coming in the first of Eighteen Centuries since Calvary. Two phases of the second coming was developed in the mid of 19th Century.

Again, I ask you, please prove me ONE verse in the Bible saying our gathering together shall be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming.

Pretribbers easily accuse at posttribbers for deny the Bible teaching on these, is much misunderstanding. Pretribbers intepreting Bible differently from what posttribbers intpreting it. Most pretribbers often intrepreting scriptures into literal. Many posttribbers do in literal things as what the scripture saying. So I. I do believe in literal things. But, depend on what the grammar or sentence talking about. Not every verses are literal, many speak of spiritual meaning, figurative meanings, symbolic meanings. Early in my Christian life, I used to intepreting scriptures into literal, whilst I was myself pretribber before. Later, I more study BIble, get understand better, not every verses are literal, depend on what verses of the grammar talking about. For example, pretrib teaches on Rev. 4:1 into literal speak of rapture. Rev. 4:1 speaks of John's experince of his vision by the revelation(supernatural communicate) that he was called up by the angel, to see the future things same with Rev. 17:1; and Rev. 21:9.

I notice the lists you show me, these are quote from John Walvoord's book - 'Rapture Question'. I do read his book.

Nothing wrong to have own books, commentaries in your library. I do have many books and commentaties in my library. These are good profit for us. But again, Bible is the final answer, Bible comes first before all books and commentaties. I depend upon God's Word comes first before them. I already see so many errors from men's teaching in their interpreting the Bible. I realized my intepreting have errors whilst I was young Christian and pretribber. The more I study Bible getting better and learning throughout years. The more I realized that my interpreting are errors, even I realized men's teachings are errors too. I determined sticky with God's Word, what it saying rather than what men saying.

1. Dispensationalism

probably, you already read mine posts debate at Dave Taylor's topic about dispsentationalism lately. I have shown many verses to pastor Larry. The reason, I do not agree with dispensationalism, because it is against the unity of the Calvary. Also, God only have the ONE plan of salvation from the beginning to the end of the world, nothing change. Many dispensationalists teaching, during O.T. time, they were saved by the faith and follow the law base upon their good works. THen, in the N.T. they are saved by the faith only, not by the law, and works. So, therefore, they teaching there are two different plans of salvation. Actually, the Bible teaches us, there is the only one plan of salvation base upon the FAITH only. Abraham was counted into rightesous by the faith - Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3-5; and Gal. 3:6. Ephesians 2:8-9 apply to all ages of O.T. and N.T., not just for the N.T. period only.

2. Between the Church and Israel

What is the purpose of Calvary? Prophecies of O.T. to Israel already fulfilled through Christ by Calvary in the N.T. I already show verses to pastor Larry at Dave's topic about dispensationalism. Please read over there. Isreal simple means God's elect people, same as Church simple means God's elect people. Both are no difference. Romans 11:25-26 tells us, Gentiles are grafted into the Olive Tree to join with believing Jews unity together, SO, all(both Jew and Gentile) Israel be saved. Both are already unity together into one body of Christ by the cross - Eph. 2:12-16.

3. The Nature and Purpose of Tribulation period

Israel already face tribulations in ther time. Same as Church already face tribulations in our time. John 16:33; Acts 14:22; 1 Thess. 3:3-4; 2 Thess. 1:4-6 telling us, that we must suffer tribulations, because Christ suffered for us, so, therefore, we follow Christ's example - Luke 9:23; and 1 Peter 2:21. Tribulation is not same definition as wrath. We are not appointed for the wrath - 1 Thess 1:10; 5:9, because we receieved salvation through Jesus Christ. Wrath is for send unbelievers to everlasting punishment, whosoever reject Jesus Christ - John 3:36. 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9 say nothing about either 3 1/2 years or 7 years of wrath. We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4, but, we are not appointed for the wrath - 1 Thess 5:9 because of salvation through Jesus Christ - eternal life.

4. The Doctrine of Imminence

Often pretrib cities Matt 24:36,40,42 to prove the doctrine of imminence on pretrib coming of Christ. True, no one knows when Christ shall come, we must be watch and be ready for his coming. I ask you question, which 2nd or 3rd coming is speak of Matt 24:40,42? Early Church was expected Christ might come anytime in their lifetime. But, it does not make them pretrib. They taught the only one future coming of Christ, even, they believed they are go through tribulations first before Christ comes. Also, they believed they shall face Antichrist revelead first. If Christ comes today, GREAT! I am happy to. If Antichrist appears first, REJOICE! , I am willing to die for Christ's sake. Also, Rev. 3:2 tells us, we always be ready to die. Never know maybe tonight, I will die, maybe tomorrow, maybe next week. I might be die by car accident, heart attack, etc. I must always be prepared for my death all the time, because I know I will face the judgement seat of Christ to judge my works and my life. That why I always be watch and be ready all the time. Matt. 24:40,42 do not prove it is pretrib. Rememeber, the context of Matt 24:40,42 with Matt 24:29-31, I know Christ will come again after the tribulation, but, I do not know when Christ shall come, I must be watch and be ready all the time, no matter what happen to me. Because I shall face the judgement seat of Christ to judge my works and my life.

5. Any future Fulfillment to the Prophecy of Dan. 9:24-27

I agree with Daniel 9:24-27 100%. It speaks of the fulfillment of the prophecy speak of the coming Messiah put sins to end and salvation through Calvary. There is NO gap time between verse 26 and 27, like as 69th week stopped at Calvary, and then 70th week shall be begin seven year tribulaiton period about 2,000 years later. Both verse 26 and 27 already fulfilled by Calvary 2000 years.

Remember, 70 weeks means 490 years. I believe Daniel wrote it about 490 years before Calvary. Verse 26 tells us, Christ was cut off AFTER 69th week, that means Christ make a new covenant on the DURING 70th week after his 3 1/2 years of ministry, that He fulfilled Dan.9:24-27. Also, He put sacrifices and offerings away - John 2:19. John 2:21 speaks of Christ's body is the temple. No longer, we need another offerings and sacrifices, we are now priests, have right to ask Christ to forgive our sins daily through his blood. Because we are under the new covenant. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 say nothing about Antichrist and the seven year of tribulation period. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus on one person - Messiah is Jesus Christ and the Calvary. It already fulfilled 2000 years ago.

6. The interpretation

Tell me, what the examples of the interpretation, that posttribs deny?

7. The Holy Spirit and the Tribulation

Pretrib intepreting 2 Thess 2:6-7 speak of the Holy Spirit as restrainer, when the Holy Spirit leaves, as the Church is rapture, then Antichrist shall be revealed. But, not what Paul actually talking about. The context of 2 Thess 2:3-8 talk about Antichrist, not Holy Spirit. Verse 6-7 tells us, God holding Antichrist back from being to be revealed. God does not allow Antichrist to be revealed in his time yet. God knows when the right time, He shall allow Antichrist to be loose out of the way, then to be revealed - 2 Thess 2:7b-8. Right now, Antichrist is being holding back from being revealed till apostasy become worst day to day(2 Thess 2:3), God knows when the right time, He shall allow Antichrist to be loose out of the way then to be revealed. Hly Spirit shall never, never leave earth. Matt 28:20 tells us, Christ promises us, He always be with us all the times TILLLLLLL the end of the world. Obivously, Church shall go through great tribulation period first, because the gospel is continue spread the world - Matt 24:14. Once Christ comes to earth at the second coming, then our body all shall be changed into immortality - Luke 21:28; Romans 8:19-23;1 Thess 4:15-17 ; & 1 Cor. 15:51-54, then, Holy Spirit will be completed.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed, I will reply back to you tomorrow morning or tomorrow night, because tomorrow night is my off from 3rd shift job.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

All you have to do is determine exactly when "immediately after the tribulation of those days" means. Its before the battle of Armageddon for sure. Does the seven year trib include that battle or not? For many that will be under great delusion it probably makes no difference one way or the other. They won't understand anyway.

For believers it will be possible to know when the time approaches even if they don't know exactly the day. Jesus tells us exactly that in Matthew.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:


Most all of us are capable of determining this. We see the trees begin to put out buds and put on leaves so we know summer is near. Simple common sense.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


So likewise when we see the things in Matthew 24 we will know his coming is near. Now the question becomes: What coming? Well its fairly apparent Jesus is talking about the coming just two verses before which is "after the tribulation of those days"

Will the entire seven years be filled out or will they be cut short?

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Probably a question that can't be answered for sure. What you eventually end up with is its seven years or maybe slightly less or maybe slightly more.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


Thats two more numbers to throw into the mix with the 1260 days.

After all things are considered we can't be sure of the exact date and all the counting we do is probably for naught. We won't outsmart God.

[ May 11, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: ballfan ]