Question for Pre-Trib Rapture Adherents

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by InTheLight, Aug 15, 2014.

  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight
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    Matthew 24:40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    The classic representation of this scenario, made popular by the Left Behind books (there is a remake of the movie coming out) is that people will suddenly vanish, leaving their clothes behind. If you were an unbeliever on an airplane and the Rapture were to occur, all that would be left where believers were sitting would be a rumpled pile of clothes, some jewelry, a phone, perhaps. I've even heard it said that prosthetic devices will be left behind, also artificial hips, heart valves, etc.

    Apparently, as our bodies are winging their way skyward God transforms them from corruptible to incorruptible mid-air.

    Do you hold to the body vanishing, clothes and other items left behind scenario?

    I've been thinking about this and it seems to me that the word "taken" in the verses above, could refer to the phrase used when a person dies, i.e. "The Lord took Mr. Smith to be with him in Heaven" or "Grandma was taken by God". It makes a lot more sense to me that the bodies of the Christians would be left behind, not just the clothes. This scenario causes the verse in 2 Thess. 2 about people believing the lies of the Antichrist make m ore sense. It would be very hard to explain away vanishing bodies, much easier to explain a wave of deaths.

    The Bible says that the body is sown perishable and but is raised a spiritual body and that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. So why would someone's body vanish if God is going to give us a totally different body?

    Along the same lines....When the Bible says the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive will be caught up, does that mean that the graves are going to split open and bodies rise up and be transformed in a wink of an eye into incorruptible, spiritual bodies? Will there be empty coffins in the ground after the Rapture?
     
  2. Jerome

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    Was the tomb empty?
     
  3. RLBosley

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    The better question is why do the pre-tribbers even use that passage when it has nothing to do with the rapture.
     
  4. InTheLight

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    Yes.

    Were Jesus' clothes left behind?
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    Yes


    Joh 20:5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
    Joh 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
    Joh 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    However, nitpicking on an issue of whether or not the clothes are left behind is straining at gnats.
     
  7. InTheLight

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    Does anybody want to address my questions?

    Do you think that our bodies will vanish and our clothes will be left behind at the Rapture?

    Do you think the graves will open up and/or bodies will come out of there and ascend?
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    Yep.

    Don't know it doesn't really matter.

    Yep
     
  9. webdog

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    Yes to both.
     
  10. InTheLight

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    Rev and Webdog: Why do you think our bodies will vanish? There is no Biblical precedent (that I can find.)

    Doesn't it make more sense for our bodies to be left behind?
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    The same reason Jesus body vanished.
    Why would that make more sense?
     
  12. webdog

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    1 Corinthians 15

    42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

    45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.

    50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

    51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

    54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:“Death is swallowed up in victory.

    55 O death, where is your victory?O death, where is your sting?”
     
  13. webdog

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    Note: mortal bodies MUST be transformed into immortal....and the dead will be raised.
     
  14. InTheLight

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    Are you referring to Luke 24:31? If so, there have been instances where Jesus or others have "transported" which I suppose would be the same as vanishing. Phillip in Acts 8, Jesus and disciples on the fishing boat in John 6:21. These people were in their natural bodies.

    As I said in the OP, it would make it easier for the Antichrist to explain millions of deaths than it would be to explain away millions of people vanishing. A lot of unbelievers know about people vanishing at the Rapture and would be aroused to the idea that this was the end times talked about in the Bible. If people merely died, they would not necessarily make the connection to the Rapture.
     
  15. InTheLight

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    Most translations say "put on" or "clothed", not transformed, but agree that our bodies will be "changed" as per v. 51.

    I'm no Greek expert but I looked at Strong's concordance and the Biblical use of the word change in this verse means: "to exchange one thing for another" and "transform".
     
  16. webdog

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    We are told our bodies will be as Christ's. His was resurrected into a spiritual body as 1 Corinthians shows, His tomb was empty and His garments were left. All good enough for me.
     
  17. JamesL

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    ITL,
    Are you making a distinction between rapture and resurrection? Maybe raptured without the body, then resurrected body when Christ comes with the saints?

    Do you hold to Walvoord's view of multiple resurrections?

    These would be helpful, to know what drives your question
     
  18. JamesL

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    What do you mean "into a spiritual body" ?? What would be the substance of this spiritual body, in your opinion?
     
  19. beameup

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    1 Cor 15:51 indicates a metamorphosis. I believe it will be genetic modification.
    "The angels that sinned" abandoned their oiketerion ("habitation" -glorified body, Jude 6) and "downgraded" to a human-like body.
    For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house oiketerion which is from heaven: 2 Cor 5:2

    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
    waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23

    BTW, Mat 24 has nothing to do with the Body of Christ. This is the prophecy concerning the Second Coming.
    Separating the "sheep from the goats" before entering the Millennium, one will be "taken" (away) and the other "left" (to enter the Millennium).
     
    #19 beameup, Aug 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2014
  20. Yeshua1

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    It is not saying that we will have a spiritual resurrection, that we will be like Casper the Ghost, but that our nature/state will be changed, that this physical body will be changed to a condition able to live forever with Christ!
     

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