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Question for the Greek scholars

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Winman, Oct 9, 2010.

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  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Dwmoeller1 and I have been debating the word "by" in Hebrews 9:12

    Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    Strongs lists this word as 1223 the Greek word "dia".

    I believe this verse to say that Jesus literally took his blood with him when he entered the Holy of Holies in heaven. Dwmoeller says this word never means "with" in the sense of "accompanied with" but means "by agency of".

    Hank pointed out that the NKJV translates this word as "with" which would seem to support my interpretation, again Dwmoeller1 says that it only means by agency of.

    Several other versions support my view, several do not. The Revised Standard, New Revised Standard, Weymouth New Testament and several others support my view.

    NRS-

    he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

    RSV-

    he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

    WNT-

    and once for all entered the Holy place, taking with Him not the blood of goats and calves, but His own blood, and thus procuring eternal redemption for us.

    There are several other translations that agree with my view besides these. But... there are quite a few that agree with Dwmoeller1's view.

    What do you Greek scholars say concerning this word "dia" used twice in Hebrews 9:12? Can it mean "with" as meaning "to be accompanied with" or can it never mean this as Dwmoeller1 believes?
     
    #1 Winman, Oct 9, 2010
  2. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word "dia" in the book of Hebrews in the KJV (not inclusive)

    For it became him, for [dia] whom are all things, and by [dia] whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through [dia] sufferings.
    Hebrews 2:10 AV1873

    Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because [dia] of unbelief,
    Hebrews 4:6 AV1873

    And by reason hereof [dia] he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
    Hebrews 5:3 AV1873

    but this man, because [dia] he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
    Hebrews 7:24 AV1873

    Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with [dia] patience the race that is set before us,
    Hebrews 12:1 AV1873

    Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby [dia] we mayserve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: Hebrews 12:28 AV1873
     
    #2 Deacon, Oct 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2010
  3. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    You're confusing μετα with the genitive with δια with the genitive. Δια with the genitive means through (place or time) or through (by agency), i.e., by means of. I would not say that δια could never mean "with" (accompaniment) without further study, for just as soon as I did so I'm sure someone would find some obscure reference where it meant just that.
     
    #3 jonathan.borland, Oct 9, 2010
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Hello to all,

    On another forum, there has arisen a debate concerning the "faith of Christ," and "faith in Christ."

    In the text, it would appear that "of" is inserted by the translators, and that is found throughout scripture where the same thing is done.

    The issue that arises is this:

    It is trying to be shown that we are saved by the faith of Christ, meaning His faith, not ours.

    Understand, I am one who believes salvation is wholly the work of God, and that salvation is not the result of man, but, I also believe that God gives us faith by which we live by.

    Any help would be appreciated by those who are better students of greek than I.

    God bless.
     
    #4 Darrell C, Oct 11, 2010
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