Question For You, Hebrews 10:28

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by HAMel, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. HAMel

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    I am in church last night and out pastor was speaking on the Past, Present and Future of Jesus. One of the verses was Hebrews 10:28.

    "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

    What jumped off the page at me was, "...appear the second time without sin,"

    Now for sure I believe Jesus was sinless..., but he was in the flesh. We know the flesh represents sin by it's very existence. So, my question is, does the language, "...appear the second time without sin," which obviously refers to Him coming back in all His glory for the Saints but does it also indicate His previous sinful nature simply by having been in the flesh? Obviously, He did not sin as we do?
     
  2. 12strings

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    I would say it refers to simply his coming a second time sinless (he already came once sinless).

    I would also argue that your premise of the idea of "flesh" is flawed. Simply having a material body does not make one a sinner. Adam and Eve started with good bodies. We will have bodies of flesh in the new heaven & new earth. It is not the bodies of men that are corrupt, it is our souls.
     
  3. HankD

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    He is sinless. This passage has the answer in itself. The first time He appeared in the flesh was to bear our sins. That is over with it, was a "once for all" proposition.

    NKJV Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.​

    The second time He apears it will not be be to cleanse us again of sin but to deliver us from this world and from the influence of the evil one and take us home to the promised place He has prepared for us.

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​


    HankD​
     
  4. JonC

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    The word translated “without” means “separately” or “apart from.” The NASB translates the passage “will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin,” which appears to be what the passage is saying when you consider the verse in context to the entire passage.

    “Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin [by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
     
  5. convicted1

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    The first time Jesus came, He came to become "sin" for us, in that He offered His body a sacrifice for us. The next time He comes, He will execute judgement in a pristine, impeccable, glorified body.
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    Your view is taking on a rather Gnostic notion, though you may be unaware, as concerning their teachings anything physical was sinful. This was an error in the early church and is still around today in different forms. It also was applied to Christ, making Him less than God and less than the Biblical revelation of all He is.

    By the way the passage is Hebrews 9:28.

    Consider Hebrews 9:11, and the reference of 'tabernacle' being perfect, and referring to that body of Christ that would be offered;

    Nothing indicates Him having a sinful nature, for He didn't have such a nature as we do, as He was God in the flesh. There is nothing in the text that indicates this, nor elsewhere in Scripture.

    The thing this passage is showing is that at His first coming in the flesh he bore the sins of many, His elect, as a perfect sacrifice. When He comes again to reign, He is not coming for the same purpose, i.e. He already has died for sins once, was buried, rose again, and is returning victorious at that time, as He is now glorified after paying for our sins.

    Nothing in this passage implies that the first time He was sinful, or had a sinful nature. That is totally against all dogma concerning God. Instead, the passage is a simple contrast between 1) His incarnation to save His people, and in so doing bearing their sins, and; 2) That in the Second appearance, He will be coming back in glory.
     
    #6 preacher4truth, Feb 13, 2012
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  7. DaChaser1

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    believe that a better way to explain this that at His first Coming, was as saviour, that he came to pay for sin debts obligated to God by man, but at second coming , will be NOT to atone for sins, but to Judge the ungodle, and to bring full/completed salvation unto the saints!

    jesus was God in human flesh/form, as both Divine and human natured, and did NOT have sinful nature, so could not be referencing that!
     
  8. kyredneck

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    When I consider this verse:

    for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry; Heb 10:37 YLT (compare http://bible.cc/hebrews/10-37.htm )

    ....and that throughout the book of Hebrews these persecuted Christian Jews are being exhorted to hold fast to the faith and not fall away (back to the Old), I have to conclude that the 'salvation' of 9:28 is in fact a deliverance from their Jewish persecutors when the wrath came upon them to the uttermost. Christ did indeed come 'a second time' upon that generation.

    John the Baptist had foretold them:

    .... he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire Mt 3:11

    ....which was perfectly fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and in the awful wrath that came AD66-70.

    jmho
     
    #8 kyredneck, Feb 13, 2012
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  9. HAMel

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    I think some misunderstood my intent here.

    The scripture specifically says, in part, "...shall he appear the second time without sin," What does that mean?

    I wasn't trying to bend the Scriptures or start another "ism" but as I said, it just jumped off the page at me. It's possible that His very appearing will repel sin as a candle repels the darkness.

    It was just a matter that raised my interest.
     
  10. preacher4truth

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    Come on, that's a completely different thought and angle than in the OP in which you hovered around a possible sinful nature:
    Nothing in it said a thing about nor even implied what you are now saying.

    No one misunderstood you. We've also given you "what it means." Jesus didn't have a sinful nature.
     
    #10 preacher4truth, Feb 14, 2012
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  11. HAMel

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    Okay, I'm throwing in the towel. You win. I'll crawl back in my cubbyhole and park in neutral for a while.
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    Who cares about winning? I'm simply pointing out that you changed gears totally from your OP then made pretense that we misunderstood you. Do you think that's being a bit disingenuous? We all understood your OP and answered it. Like it or not, your thoughts were along the line of Gnostic thought.

    Clearly in the OP you spoke of "His previous sin nature." Now you've attempted to go down another road, which is fine, but your not owning up was what got me coupled with blaming others for not understanding you.

    Jesus didn't have a previous sin nature. As to your new theory, will His coming repel sin? Good thought. It certainly will.
     
  13. Mark_13

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    Christ could certainly be tempted by evil when in the flesh, which makes him different from God in that regard:

    (James 1:13 NASB) Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

    (Heb 2:17-18) Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

    (Heb 5:8-10) Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

     
  14. preacher4truth

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    So you think Jesus had a sin nature and/or that He isn't God?
     
  15. HAMel

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    Mark..., it does appear to me that many on this forum board just sit in wait.
    Without exception there are always positions taken in opposition to the topic.

    Below are some tidbits of responses. Accordingly, How Dumb I Am, and we wonder why so many believers are reluctant to ask questions..., put forth any concerns they might have, have their misunderstandings dealt with, or confusions that often arise over the literal meaning of Scriptures, etc.

    Am I to assume all these responses were provided simply as a help..., or otherwise were they offered up in a condescending tone? There's one poster on here that will flat out tell 'ya "YOU'RE WRONG!

    Your view is taking on a rather Gnostic notion,

    Nothing in it said a thing about nor even implied what you are now saying.

    and did NOT have sinful nature, so could not be referencing that!

    Nothing in this passage implies that the first time He was sinful, or had a sinful nature. That is totally against all dogma concerning God.

    Clearly in the OP you spoke of "His previous sin nature." Now you've attempted to go down another road, which is fine, but your not owning up was what got me coupled with blaming others for not understanding you.

    My Question was, does the language, "...appear the second time without sin," which obviously refers to Him coming back in all His glory for the Saints but does it also indicate His previous sinful nature simply by having been in the flesh? Obviously, He did not sin as we do?

    Yes, I USED THE WRONG WORD. I said "nature". Should not have used that word. My error. So, I'll sit back in neutral and leave it alone.
     
  16. Mark_13

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    Whatever those verses I listed say, that's what I think.

    I try to be noncommittal on everything and just quote scripture. Seriously, I think that's the best course of action. I think if all pastors did is get in the pulpit and read the Bible, it would in some ways be better than a sermon, because any time one deigns to interpret, to explain, to elaborate, they invariably depart from the truth, at least to some limited extent. Its a necessary evil though, as one can't just quote the Bible always.

    But as to what I think, I used to memorize the Bible a lot - the entire books of Ephesians, I Peter and James. Am just getting back into it now, having memorized Psalm 103 recently. Its a lot easier than people think - no problem at all to memorize an entire chapter in a couple of hours. Actors memorize like this all the time.

    So, maybe one can reach a point where they have no thoughts of their own - only scripture.
     
  17. preacher4truth

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    It all sounds very pious of you.

    Of course when the Word was spoken in tongues, there were interpretors. It is not wrong to interpret and expound, it's according to God's Word that we do so.

    Now, I ask again; So you think Jesus had a sin nature and/or that He isn't God? Keep in mind I ask this based upon YOUR words "he is different than God" not upon what the Scriptures you've given say.
     
    #17 preacher4truth, Feb 14, 2012
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  18. revmwc

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    No it doesn't imply He had a sin nature. He shall appear to us the believer and take us home in our complete glorified body and we will have no old sin nature in us.

    His first appearing He came and bore the sins, His return for His bride shows His return as the sinless Saviour and He takes with Him a sinless Bride. Next at His second coming He appears the Saints of the Tribulation as the Sinless conquerer coming to establish His Kingdom and no payment of sin is required.
    No more sin offering is required, He paid the price and became the offering for sin. Notice verse 26 He put away sin by the scrifice of Himself.

    Notice verse 10 of Chapter 10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." We are sanctifed through His offering the issue of sin no longer bears upon us. Then notice chapter 10 verse 14 "...by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" He has perfected us, not on this side of the Grave or eternity but we will no longer have sin or a sin nature when we are with Him at His appearing.


    Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Followed by
    Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

    7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
     
  19. Mark_13

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    Christ could certainly be tempted by evil when in the flesh, which makes him different from God in that regard:

    (James 1:13 NASB) Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

    (Heb 2:17-18) Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

    (Heb 5:8-10) Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
     
  20. DaChaser1

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    Jesus is GOD though!

    Your statement seems to imply jesus was not God...

    He was/is God in human flesh, born w/o a sinful nature as all the rest of us are!

    In the Incarnation , god assumed limitations of a man, yet without a sin nature...

    that is why God was tempted, as He had limitations of the human body vol assumed!
     

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