question from agnostic

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jim1999, Mar 26, 2006.

  1. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    From the Baptist theology forum:

    I overheard a conversation between an agnostic and a Christian. The agnostic asked some questions, but a couple of them stood out in my mind:

    1. If God is all-merciful, why would He create puny human souls with a sinful nature and punish them forever and ever since they can't help but live in sin?

    2. Why does God get satisfaction from the eternal suffering of these wretches since He knew from the beginning that they would not believe the Gospel?
    ----------------------------------------------

    1. God did not create a puny human soul. He created man,,,,and He was pleased. It was man who sinned and violated the very nature of God and brought upon himself the sinful nature.

    2. God does not take pleasure in the lost estate of humankind. They brought the sorrow upon themselves. God passed them by in the selection process, which is His prerogative.

    I see these type of questions all the time, and the usual responses. Often the responders fail to put theology in the proper perspective. It is an orderly garden of thought, broken down into various stages. Often the stages themselves overlap and appear to be different in order of consequence. For instance, foreknowledge is not the governing factor. It is rather the fact of God's attributes. His very nature precludes foreknowledge, in that He is all-knowing. Further, God is not limited by time as is man, and this makes it the more difficult for man to rationalize God's purposes in time.

    Let's hear others.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  2. nate

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    1. God didn't create human's with puny sinful souls. Rather He chose to give Adam the choice between good and evil and Adam made his decision.

    2. God doesn't take pleasure in the fact millions will be in hell. In fact I believe right the opposite is true I believe this hurts God. But it can't be helped some humans and men are stubborn and would follow Satan no matter what.

    This is possibly one option. Good answers Rev. Jim.

    (p.s. this post was from a semi-Arminian view point.)
     
  3. BobRyan

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    All - the attempt to rationalize the classic Christian tradition of cruel and unjust punishment "that does not fit the crime" - has turned away many a non-believer from the Savior.

    In all these attempts the rationalize - the "obvious" is always ignored - obvious to the unbeliever while the believer simply "pretends not to see it".

    That obvious point being that "AT EVERY POINT God has a choice"!! At every point God can CHOOSE to allow sinful humanity to exist - or wipe them ot as at the flood!

    At every point God has the CHOICE to punish for all eternity or to cease punishing once the payment demanded by His Law is complete.

    From eternity past God had the CHOICE in making His Law to declare that INFINITE punishment was the "payment due" for EVERY sin - or to quantify sin and punishment such that FINITE punishment - quantifiable and just was due for EACH sin - thus making it "knowable" the cost of sin and the fact of piling up all that cost on the Savior.

    At every point God could choose to let the wicked suffer in "HIS VERY PRESENCE" along with all of His holy ones - (Rev 14:10) or to simply conduct their torment endlessly in some dark corner.

    At every point God could choice to either rejoice in the torment of our precious loved ones writhing in agony in flames - or to say that in all that - in every moment of it - He takes no pleasure in it - and that in fact HE IS the God of Love - who SO LOVED THE WORLD not just "the FEW who manage to be saved in some way".

    God "DESTROYS" both body and soul in hell fire (Matt 10:28) just as mankind is able to DESTROY the body of the saints today. As REAL as you see that destruction of body today - so is the DESTRUCTION of body AND SOUL that God performns in hell fire.

    (Observe the obvious - the body returns to dust)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    God gave man a free will. What he does with it is up to him.

    Selah,

    Tam
     
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    The only free will fallen man has is to do evil. Otherwise his choice is limited to the human realm of time. Free will to choose spiritual values is reserved to the elect of God in saving grace.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  6. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    By your description Jim, there would be no christians at all, because we cannot "choose" to accept Christ???

    I see no "cheers" in that!!

    tam
     
  7. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    The grace of God in election....He chose me...it is in the new birth I receive the willingness to follow Him.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. tamborine lady

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  9. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Never thought I would say it, but I agree with Jim.

    Cheers,

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. steaver

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    One can only choose to accept Christ if God FIRST pricks the heart with Holy Spirit conviction. God must initiate the process. Therefore give God ALL the Glory! Else we would all perish!

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
  11. steaver

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    Your error is that you state these facts as if God can change His mind at any moment in real time, like today even.

    The fact is that God has given His Word BEFORE the foundation of the world as to just exactly how He was going to do things.

    God cannot and will not go against His very Word. His Word is everything.

    If God said that He predestinated you BobRyan to be comformed unto the image of His Son unto the END, SEALED by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then it shall be so! "IT IS WRITTEN" It will be done. God will not be changing His mind!

    That is not placing God in a box, that is standing on the promisses of God and defending God's very character of pure Righteousness. It is defending God's Word.

    To say God can change His mind or choose to wipe out us all, even His own born again children, at any time, is a lie from the pit of hell. I pray this is not what you are saying but it sounded that way to me. I appologize in advance if I took the post wrongly.

    God Bless!
     
  12. James Flagg

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    But why is all of humanity being punished for Adam's sin so many centuries ago? Where is the justice in that?
     
  13. James Flagg

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    But is God's self-esteem so low that he can't bear the thought of so many limited, finite humans of his own creation not worshipping him? Isn't the Christian God saying merely, "Worship me or suffer eternal torture"?

    -JF (playing Devil's advocate even though he doesn't need one) [​IMG]
     
  14. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    So, should anyone even bother to try to accept Jesus?

    If God is the one who decides whether you are saved or not, shoudn't we just live like the devil and then if God ever lets us know we are chosen, then we can say ok?

    That would mean that there is no reason to pray for the salvation of anyone, because God has already made up his mind about that person, and they will be saved or not, but intercession on their behalf will have no effect. :eek: :confused:

    Doesn't that seem a lttle goofy to anybody?

    Working for Jesus,

    Tam
     
  15. webdog

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    A choice is between two or more things. You eliminate choice when you state that fallemn man has only one choice...which by definition is no longer a choice. This is nonsense.
     
  16. webdog

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    welcome to the false doctrine of calvinism.
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    If the Word of God commands us, as Christians to intercede for the salvation of the lost, that is the only reason we need to intercede. The same is true of witnessing. We do so because God has commanded us to do so. Why do you need some other reason.

    Jesus working through me,

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. hillclimber

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    Then why evangelize?
     
  19. hillclimber

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    A choice is between two or more things. You eliminate choice when you state that fallemn man has only one choice...which by definition is no longer a choice. This is nonsense. </font>[/QUOTE]Of a high order!
     
  20. hillclimber

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    Calvinism sucks.
     

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