Question on 2 Thess. 2:1

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Dec 7, 2004.

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Does 2 Thess. 2:1 tells, our gathering together at Christ's coming same time?

  1. Yes

    100.0%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed says,
    I am curious, would like to hear from baptists either pretribs or postribs what they actual believe 2 Thess. 2:1 saying. I would not be surprise, MOST or all believe verse 1 telling us, our gathering together shall be at Christ's coming same time. Wait and see what they reply on this poll on verse 1.
     
  2. menageriekeeper

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    DP have you gotten your reference correct?

    My Bible says this:

    "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him we ask you brothers, not to becoume easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come." 2 Thess. 2:1-2

    This doesn't say anything at all about Satan or whether there will be separte times of gathering and destroying. This verse simply tell us not to be decieved into thinking that Christians had already been gathered and we had been left behind, thus leading to doubts about our salvation.

    Satan is not even mentioned here.

    If you stretch things quite a bit, I guess you could could put the words "coming of our Lord" and "our being gathered to him" as separate happenings but in context with the rest of the two verses, I don't believe this is what the writer intended. The intention of these two verse is to warn about deception as I said above. Only in verse three does the writer starts explaining about the things that will to happen before the Lord comes to get us.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    An important point about 2 Thess 2:1 is to recognize that what the "new comers" were teaching was not what Paul had taught.

    The question is, What were the Newcomers teaching? They were teaching that the DOL had begun and that the church was in teh Tribulation time. The church was confused because Paul had taught something different.

    Which leads to the question, If Paul had taught something other than that the church would be in teh Tribulation, what was it? It is clear that Paul taught that the church would be gone before the Tribulation. This is clear exegetical support for a pretrib rapture of the church.
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

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    So far, 50% answered 'yes', 50% answered 'no'. I am waiting to see more people to reply this.

    Earlier, Apostle Paul told them, that we are appointed for tribulations in 1 Thess. 3:3-4. Also, Paul told them that we shall not be rest from persecutions till Christ comes with his angels in 2 Thess. 1:4-10, obivous, we must go through tribulations first before Christ comes is posttrib.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    But going through tribulations is not the same as going through the Tribulation at the DOL. God, in the context of the DOL, told us that we are not appointed for wrath, but for salvation. Therefore, the church will not go through the Tribulation, though we will certaily have tribulations.
     
  6. pastorjeff

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    It is appropriate to note that the Church has always gone through trials and tribulation. Christ Himself spoke that it would happen to all who were believers and followed Him.
     
  7. APuritanMindset

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    What if when God said that we weren't appointed to wrath but to salvation means that we will be protected from the wrath of God and saved in an eternal sense. Like...it has nothing to do with end times stuff but has everything to do with the eternal security of the believer? That no matter what happens, nothing can seperate us from the love of Christ, as Paul speks of in Romans?
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    That is certainly true, but in the context of 1 Thess 5, it is clear that that is not what Paul was talking about. He is talking about a time of "Peace and safety" (something hardly compatible with the tribulation judgments) that gives way to a time of great wrath. That is not end time wrath.

    The idea that believers will not be subjected to eternal wrath is certainly a true one. But that is not the subject of 1 Thess 5. That is a case of right doctrine from the wrong text.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    Christians at Thessalonica, they were not rumour about tribulation, they were rumor about the timing of Christ's coming. That's how Apostle Paul heard rumors from them. So, he pleas them, to pay attention or heed to his teaching again. He told them, do not let them to deceive you of any means(rumours, teaching on the timing of Christ's coming), for DAY shall NOT come(our gathering/day of Christ/coming of Christ) till we shall see apostasy first.

    Our gathering cannot be occur yet till Christ first must come according to 1 Thess. 4:15 & Matt. 24:30.

    Obivous, 2 Thess. 2:1 speaks of two events shall be included in the day of Christ same time.

    So far, 3 answered, 'Yes', 4 answered, 'No'. I expect, more people will reply back with the poll.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Plain Old Bill

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    llThes 2:1 refers back to 1 Thes 4:17 the rapture.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    The problem for you is that these things go hand in hand. The believers were being told they were in the the tribulation, but Paul had taught them differently. We can only deduce that Paul had taught them they would be raptured before the Tribulation, a pretrib Rapture.

    ONly problem is that that is not what he told them. He did not say anything about us seeing the apostasy. He said it would come. But believers will be gone before that day comes. The believers will go, the apostasy will come, and the DOL will begin. In that order, according to the text.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    2 Thessalonians 2:1 is NOT the only
    scriputre that mentions both
    the rapture/resurrection coming of
    the Lord AND IN ADDITION
    the defeating Satan coming
    of the Lord in the same verse.

    Titus 2:13 (HCSB):
    while we wait for the blessed hope and the appearing
    of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
    .
     
  14. Plain Old Bill

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    Right on Ed!
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    I will reply back to you tonight.

    So far, I notice only 10 persons reply on the poll. There is over, 10,000 members in baptistboard. Where are hundreds or thousands of members at baptistboard. I know PLENTY of them should make answer the poll on this question. So, far 6 persons answered 'yes', 4 persons answered, 'no'.

    I aware there are LOT of them at baptistboard do believe 2 Thess. 2:1 speaks of our gathering at Christ's coming is rapture refers to 1 Thess. 4:15-17.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    2 Thess.1: 1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

    Context is the Church.

    6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    1.If this speaks of the Second Coming, why is the Church still there? Were they not raptured out 7 years earlier?

    2.Did these Thessolonians recieve the rest from tribulation? If this event is future the answer in no, thus a false hope was given to them. However since the persecution they were recieveng was from the Jews, it was given to them at the coming in judgement in AD70.

    3. Niether can it be the rapture. Since at this coming on this day there is vengeance taken and those shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

    II Thess2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gatheringGr.( eÍpisunagwgh) together unto him,


    Matt 24:29"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather Gr.(eÍpisuna/gw)together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    These two passages speak of the same event. Here is Post-Mill Jonanthan Edwards comments on:

    (On I Thessalonians 2:16)
    "The 'wrath is come,' i.e., it is just at hand; it is at the door: as it proved with respect to that nation: their terrible destruction by the Romans was soon after the apostle wrote this epistle." (Works, vol. iv. p. 281)

    If Paul is teaching of the same event in II Thes. as he was in I Thes. then Paul speaks of AD70. Most A-Mill and Post-Mill (and many pre-mills) take Matt 24:31 to speak also of the events of AD70.

    It seems to me these events are either both past or both future. Yet most A-mill/post mill commentaries will put Matt 24 in the past yet II Thess. in the future.
     
  17. prophecynut

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    Context is very important for the proper interpretation, sorry to say most ignore this, especially with His two appearings. One is in grace when revealed to the Church and the other is in judgment when revealed to the rebellious people on earth.

    Check out the rapture passages: 1 Thess. 4:15-17; 2 Thess 2:1; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 4:8; Titus 2:13. The Church is being addressed here and not the unbeliever. The context speaks of believers being in the presence of the Lord when he appears to them. There is a total absence of earthly judgments as prophesied by OT prophets or their fulfillment in Revelation. If earthly judgments are not in the context of these passages then do not include the Church as in the midst of those judgements.

    What about 2 Thess. 1:3? "All this is evidence that God's judgment is right.....when the Lord Jesus is re revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels."

    What is this blazing fire all about? The answer is in Heb. 10:27; "but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God ." The enemies of God are the rebellious people on earth who are judged at the Second Coming.

    The Second Coming in raging fire is pay back time for the saints who have suffered through out the Church age. It is not a time of rest for the Church saints, rather it's time for God's revenge.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    Our gathering together and the Second Coming of the
    Master is one event one day. The Gathering (AKA: rapture)
    is at the beginning of the 7-year-day, the 70th Week
    of Daniel. The coming again of Jesus, our Master
    to destroy the works of the antichirst is at the end
    of the 7-year-day, the 70th Week of Daniel
    (AKA: Tribulation period).

    SO the correct vote in DeafPosttrib's poll
    is: "Yes".
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    "DeafPosttrib: "There is over, 10,000 members in baptistboard."

    Actually there are only about 4500 members
    left. There HAVE BEEN at diffrent times
    over 10,000, but not all at once.
    Any list of members shows 3 out of 4 that sign
    us NEVER POST even one post. OF course, this
    leaves 1100 active members, which proves
    your point. Interesting, you can have all the
    wrong points and still
    come to the right conclusion!!
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    These figures are closer than those
    estimated in my last post:

    #10279 - highest membership number
    5325 current members (with maintained records)
    4925 (92%) never posted
    425 (8%) have posted
     

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