question on Calvinism

billwald,

Is this a kind of 'death bed repentance' on water.

No, when God sealed Noah and family in the Ark they were the only ones saved. This is expressed also by the late, Dr. M.R. Dehaan, a Calvinist who used to preach on Radio Bible Class out of Grand Rapids. By a Calvinist I at least mean that he believed in eternal security.

Regards . . .

 

Man is not a free moral agent. The first man-Adam chose to disobey God. Adam's progeny has a choice overridden by a total depravity of his nature. Not only can man not choose the good, he knows not how to recognize it. Man chooses the bad and likes it by nature.

"Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world"

Selah,

Bro. James

 

"The Possibility of Salvation" is a notion contrary to Scripture. It suggests that somehow man in his depravity can "choose wisely" between the good and the evil. In his depravity, he knows not the difference. Man cannot" make a decision for Christ" on his own. "No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him."

The names are already written the the Lamb's Book of Life. Jesus is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

God predestinated His Elect before the world began. He knows exactly who they are and where they are. He knows the end from before the beginning. Some of them are lost sheep not yet gathered back to the fold. Not one of them was lost save one--Judas Iscariot--he is a special case. Jesus said He called twelve--one a devil. Jesus calls His sheep--they cannot resist His call. Thank God we do not have a choice--we would make the wrong choice.

The fields are ready for harvest. God is calling his sheep to the fold through the preaching of the Gospel.

See the Gospel of John Ch. 10.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Brother James,

Almighty God's plan of salvation is greatly compromised by people who tell the saints and sinners that they have no human agency in coming to Christ. Even the Devil knows men and women are going to be held responsible for evading Jesus, because of their viable freedom of the will. [John 3:16; Revelation 22:17f] How grave a sin it is for sinners to turn away from the call of God, in the light that He died for not only our sins but for the sins of the whole world. [I John 2:2]

I think you will agree with some of this post in the light that the 'Spirit and Bride say, Come.' God did not qualify who will be called to salvation as He closes the Book of Revelation and His canon of Scripture.

'Whosoever will . . . ' [Revelation 22:17f] hardly segregates only a restricted number of people coming to Jesus. And also be enlightened that a sinner cannot ' . . . take the water of life freely' if he or she has their will bound or {the bondage of the will} as Martin Luther believed. In order to take something, a person has to have human agency and/or a free will.

Denying free will is merely like an ostrich burying his head in the sand. A Calvinistic ostrich, of course; no hurt intended.

You Calvinists 'broad stroke' all sinners as "Totally Depraved" while the servant of God, James reminds us that 4,064 years after the Fall in the Garden, that all human sinners are fashioned after the image of God. [James 3:9] In fact, God says that neither sinners or saints should 'curse' another human being, because we are all created ' . . . after the similitude of God.' [James 3:9]

Yes, we are tainted by our Adamic nature, but the Holy Spirit leads us to our need of Jesus. [Revelation 22:17a] God the Spirit makes sinners aware of their lost condition.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Ray,
You seem to be confusing ability with responsibility. No one that I know of denies that men 'may' come to Christ, the problem is, none 'can' come (John 6:44). How do you view this text.

In Christ

 

Southern,

Study John 1:9 thoroughly along with James 3:9 and you will understand that sinners are not in as desperate a situation as some believe. We were created by God even since the Fall to receive grace and to have faith in Jesus. Because of the aid of the Spirit, sinners are not left to themselves. There is hope.

I believe John 6:44 means that no sinner can come to Jesus without the guidance and help of the Spirit of God. The Triune Godhead is always tugging at the hearts and lives of all sinners who hear the truth of the Gospel. This verse does not hint of a partiality that God might have toward some of His lost creatures, namely sinners. All who trust Christ will be raised at the rapture of the church, to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 

Ray,

Hey brother. You stated:

I believe John 6:44 means that no sinner can come to Jesus without the guidance and help of the Spirit of God.

Me: I believe if you look at how the word 'draw' is used in the new testament, this would be more than a wooing "help", because we see that it is effectual, look at vs. 37 and 44. Can you show me in the New Testament where it "clearly" indicates a "wooing"? How do you explain that the ones drawn will be raised up to eternal life?

You:The Triune Godhead is always tugging at the hearts and lives of all sinners who hear the truth of the Gospel. This verse does not hint of a partiality that God might have toward some of His lost creatures, namely sinners.

Me: Why did God not give "all sinners" to the Son in verse 37?

You:All who trust Christ will be raised at the rapture of the church, to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Me:Amen brother, I believe that all who trust in Christ will be raised up also.

 

Dr. Berrien,

Once again you accuse Calvinists of teaching something we do not teach. We do not teach that people do not have any human agency in coming to Christ. Again,we do not teach that. Not having any human agency would mean first that we teach that "God drags sinners unwillingly 'kicking and screaming' into His kingdom." We teach the will is not absolutely free; the will is free to do that which it is able to do and no further. The person that is unregenerate will not accept Christ. The person that is regenerate will accept Christ.

We do not teach that the will is violated. The will is simply the mind choosing. However, we view the mind, the emotions and desires, and the will as related but separate concepts. The will can not choose what it does not have the desire to choose. The desires are what is changed, not the will. The will is not violated by the changing of the desires of a man in a positive manner, because the will must still act accordingly. Just as large planets do not fall into the gravity wells of larger planets, so it is with the regenerate man's desires in relationship to his agency to choose. The desire is a larger, more powerful "gravitas," vs. the desire to reject Christ, thus the will falls into the gravity well of the stronger of the desires and he will choose and does freely and willingly choose accordingly. The choice is free, not coerced, because the person is not coerced against their will, that is, against their ability, responsibility, or right to choose for themselves.

Likewise the unregenerate freely choose as well. They are free to choose according to their own desires, which do not, of their own nature include accepting Christ or having God Himself as Lord and Master.Since God's word declares that the unregenerate man has a deceitful heart, does not do good, does not seek for God, cannot understand spiritual things, has nothing good dwelling in him, is dead in his sins, and is by nature a child of wrath, we maintain that he is incapable of making a moral choice to decide to trust in Christ on his own, e.g. it simply isn't in his nature to do it, and we can't do things that it is not in our nature to do, we can not become things beyond ourselves, because no potentiality can become an actuality on its own. It is axiomatic that no potential can actualize itself We do not believe in "self-actualization," which is the logical end to Arminian thought with regard to the will and the sinfulness of man. We maintain that his will is also affected by sin and, as the word of God says in Romans 6:14-20, he is a slave of sin. This means that he is incapable of coming to God on his own because he cannot and will not choose contrary to his fallen and sinful nature

Think of gay marriage. Gays wish to marry without adhering to the divine definition of what marriage is. They wish to have the benefits of marriage, but they must change the definition of marriage in order to accomplish the act of being married in order to be truly married. So it is with man. The best he can muster are righteous acts, but they are only that, they are not truly Godward acts in the sense of having the Person of God for His own sake as the ground of those acts. Instead, they are done for having the good benefits of God. This choice is not coercive, they do so freely.

Sinners and saints alike believe what they believe freely. We do not believe or teach that either chooses cooercively without complete freedom. Man is as free as God is free, that is just as God's choice and actions are in accordance with His own nature (God can not for example make a rock so heavy He could not lift), so are man's desires, and man's desires do not include intrinistically any desire to follow Christ, accept Christ, etc...only to reject.

Total depravity does not mean that men cannot make choices or negate human agency. It says that their choices will only be consistent with the nature of fallen man which, we have seen from God's word, is fallen, a slave of sin, full of evil, is incapable of understanding spiritual things, and does not seek for God. Second, if the claim that it is not right for a person to be held responsible for doing only that which is consistent with his nature would mean that the devil himself is exempt from judgment since he also is only following the dictates of his fallen nature.

 

Southern,

Calvinists seem to think that wooing is a bad word or at least one that does not fit the Biblical picture. So I will say that God draws all sinners to Himself as soon as they hear the Gospel. It is our responsibility to bring the truth to sinners. The Word says something to the affect that 'If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me.' Revelation 22:17 also along with John 6:37 indicates that Jesus is calling to all and will not cast any sinner out. Obviously, only those who believe will be saved. [Acts 2:21] On the basis of God's foreknowledge [I Peter 1:2] He elects and has chosen His people. In other words, God has always known who will respond to Jesus and these the Father has given to His Son. [John 6:37]

This is to the point; I have an appointment to keep.

Regards to you and yours.

 

If God's foreknowledge is based on who He knows ahead of time (which is foreknowledge) will have faith or not have faith, then how is that not partiality? You say Calvinists believe in a God who is partial. However, to look into the future and base election on something that persons will do or won't do is the very definition of partiality, because it grounds foreknowledge in a quality that exists within those individuals.

Likewise, I find no text that says that God bases His foreknowledge of such a thing. The Bible simply does not say that God bases foreknowledge on that. 1 Peter 1:2 just says we are chosen according to God's foreknowledge, it does not lay the ground of that foreknowledge. WE are foreknown and therefore predestined, but to say that it is the foreknowledge of who will believe or not believe is to exceed the text. The use of "we" would indicate nothing more than foreknowledge of existence, and existence is something grounded in God's act, God's plan, God's arrangement. To say that the ground of foreknowledge is faith reads something into the text that is not there. Arminians usually use Romans 8:29 - 30 to defend the prescient view, but the text there only says that God predestines those He foreknew. It leaves the basis of foreknowledge in God. It is not spelled out what that is. God does not predestine what He does not foreknow, but the object of foreknow seems to be simply that God foreknew that the people He would predestine would exist, and nothing exists that God does not ordain, so that means the basis of predestination lies in no quality of the individual, even his or her existence as an inherent quality; simply put foreknowledge is grounded in God, not man's faith, which is where foreknowing who the faith or lack of faith in others puts the ground of foreknowledge. The Calvinistic understanding of foreknowledge may leave it to some divine mystery, but at least it does not add to the text.

Likewise, the word for "draw" or "drag" used in Scripture is "elko," is it not? How can you get "woo" from "drag?" You draw or drag water from a well (as in Greek drama), as in John 6:44, but you do not stand at the well and say, "Here, water, please come here, I request you go come here." To drag carries with it the idea of compelling. Wooing is, by definition, requesting, not compelling. No Calvinist disputes the idea that Christ will not cast out any sinners that come to Him; we simply contend that no sinner has the ability to respond positively to the gospel in and of themselves by their very nature. Those that come to Christ do because their desires have not only been influenced, but actually transformed in some manner, without any grounding in any quality inherent to themselves. Being done for a purpose, it is, by definition, not arbitrary, because arbitrariness requires its doing to have no purpose.

Also, by saying the Holy Spirit woos, can you tell us, is this wooing internal or external? Does God woo all people equally? If so, then why do some accept the gospel and others reject it? If not, then does God not woo those He knows would not accept the gospel? Why not just woo those He knows will accept it and be done with it? If that is so, then wouldn't that be favoritism, which you say you reject. If not, and the wooing is equal to all, then it must be something within those persons that leads them to accept or reject? What might that be? Is it that the answer is the intensity of the wooing? If that is so, then why isn't that partiality? Also, then you must agree that man is responding to a force external to himself that is stronger than his desire to reject Christ, and that is consistent with "irresistible grace," which Arminians also seek to deny. Do some respond because of greater intelligence, virtue, or desire in themselves? If so, then that's unScriptural, because those things lie in individuals and Paul was wrong in Ephesians 2, because we DO have something about which to boast. Is it that some people receive more illumination from the Holy Spirit than others? If so, why is that? If all people that hear the gospel receive the same illumination, then why is it that some reject and others do not? You see, the entire "wooing" concept gets itself into a recursive loop that is inherently illogical. Logic exists as a necessary concomitant of the existence of God. While logic is a tool and only as good as the user, both Arminian and Calvinist theologians, including those of the modern era, like Geisler and Gershom, all acknowledge that if something is illogical or uses a fallacious recursive loop, it is an invalid premise. Therefore, on that, as well, as Scriptural basis, I find the entire "wooing" premise logicallly invalid. Likewise, I find the idea that God's foreknowledge is grounded in who will believe and who will not believe unsupported by Scripture, because saying that adds to the texts on the matter, and requires belief in a God who is partial, which is the very thing you say Calvinists believe, when, in fact, it is the Arminian who believes that, not the Calvinist, and, in so doing he must embrace a premise he seeks to deny, removing the grounds of his objection to Calvinism.

 

Great post, Gene.

Minor correction: the Greek word translated "foreknew" depicts intimate knowledge. God knew us ahead of time in an intimate way, not simply that we (the elect) would exist. But the word doesn't at all describe God foreknowing what we would or wouldn't do (believe or not believe), so your point remains entirely intact.

 

Gene M. Bridges,

You must factor into your theology of elect the portion of Scripture in Matthew chapter thirteen. The various kinds of soil depict the human lives of all sinners. Some sinners because of their continual sinning have hardened their hearts. But, even the worst of sinners have been drawn by the Spirit to receive Jesus into their lives. There are those who will accept Christ and some will continue in their sins and will pay for it at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11] A study of the various hearts/lives is expressed in the varied soils.

While most of the soils produced no permanent spiritual life, yet some 'fell on the good ground.' [vs. 8] What I am saying is that election is not by Divine decree, it is a matter of the human sinner's response to Christ through the preaching/witnessing of His Word. It is on this basis that the Lord God knows what is in the heart of divers sinners, and has determined His election on the response of faith, or lack of true belief in Jesus.

Notice that there was nothing wrong inherently with the seed, the Word of God. All kinds of soils/hearts/lives heard the Gospel unto salvation.

In this view human sinners are made responsible to the Triune Godhead, and God continues untouched and remains God of Divine justice/fairness.

 

You must factor into your theology of elect the portion of Scripture in Matthew chapter thirteen. The various kinds of soil depict the human lives of all sinners. Some sinners because of their continual sinning have hardened their hearts. But, even the worst of sinners have been drawn by the Spirit to receive Jesus into their lives. There are those who will accept Christ and some will continue in their sins and will pay for it at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11] A study of the various hearts/lives is expressed in the varied soils.

While most of the soils produced no permanent spiritual life, yet some 'fell on the good ground.' [vs. 8] What I am saying is that election is not by Divine decree, it is a matter of the human sinner's response to Christ through the preaching/witnessing of His Word. It is on this basis that the Lord God knows what is in the heart of divers sinners, and has determined His election on the response of faith, or lack of true belief in Jesus.

Notice that there was nothing wrong inherently with the seed, the Word of God. All kinds of soils/hearts/lives heard the Gospel unto salvation.

In this view human sinners are made responsible to the Triune Godhead, and God continues untouched and remains God of Divine justice/fairness.
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, not it does not, because you ground election in something IN MAN. That's the problem, you have a God who is showing partiality in that view. Why? Because the definition of partiality is to look into the future and see something IN MAN and base election upon it. That is by definition partiality, the very thing you say Calvinists are guilty of believing. Saying that God looks into the future also gives man something to boast about, namely faith, completely negating Paul in Ephesians.

The parable of the soils is not addressing the issue of election. Red herring.

Calvinists also affirm that men are ultimately responsible. Not having faith in Christ is itself a sin that must be paid for as well. All are ultimately responsible for it. They are judged accordingly and passed over. Since all are condemned, God's justice is satisfied. The reprobate are judged and passed over, the elect's sins are paid for at the cross. For both groups, then, justice and wrath are satisfied. There is nothing unjust in the Calvinist view, because it grounds itself in God Himself. It is unjust, however, to ground election itself IN MAN, because that means God must look with partiality at an intrinsic quality IN MAN. THAT is favoritism by definition.

Please answer my other questions. Does the Holy Spirit "woo" everybody equally. If so, then why do some resist and others not resist? If not, then you have to face the same objections raised against unconditional election.

[ October 04, 2004, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]

 

How literal do you want to go, then? If we are to be completely literal, then women are excluded .

The key is the next verse. He was saying this to indicate the type of death He would die. Prophetically, it could also refer to the idea that all men would have to come to some sort of decision about Christ. Again, it does not advocate grace as resistible, nor does it advocate grace as irresistible, it simply says that all men would have to face such a decision. Why? Because Jesus is the only Savior anybody will ever have. This does not necessitate resistible grace, nor does it necessitate unlimited atonement or their converse views within the classic Reformed tradition.

John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (NIV)

Does the "all" here refer to every individual on the planet? If yes, then how can they be drawn and come to salvation if they never hear of Jesus and the gospel message? I don't see how they can since they never had the opportunity to hear and, therefore, believe in Jesus. Again, what about the tribesmen in the Amazon? What about the Incas and Aztecs at the time of Christ? What about the countless people who had never even heard of Jesus, the Bible, Jehovah, or the Jews? How are they drawn if Jesus draws all men? They certainly must be drawn if the Arminian position is valid and the "all" here means every individual. But no one can believe unless they hear the Word of God (Rom. 10:17). How can the heathen believe without hearing? How can they all be drawn if they never hear the gospel or even have the slightest chance to ever hear it? They cannot. (MSlick)

 

But lest you be deceived, Bob, as one who adheres to the Doctrines of Grace (not Calvinism)
my statement on free will was limited only to Adam and Eve.
</font>[/QUOTE]Indeed -- that is all it takes.

To argue that sinless beings are given free will by God to choose obedience or rebellion AND STILL claim that God was sovereign EVEN then - you unravel then entire "god-can't-be-sovereign if he allows fallen humans to have free will" argument of Calvinists.

The point remains.

No doubt. However EVEN Calvinist "admit" that the John 12:32 "DRAWING" of God ENABLES that choice that total depravity DISABLES.

And it is THAT which Arminians claims to ENABLE choice for God "DRAWS ALL mankind unto Him".

Simply pointing out that the sinful fallen human nature exists is not enough to make the point since even Calvinism allows for choosing life when DRAWN supernaturally by God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan said:

Let the Calvinists speak for themselves. As far as I am concerned, God enables His people among all men, He does not enable all mankind.

There are the elect, and there are the reprobates. They make up all mankind.

The Scriptures said:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out - John 6:37

No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me, draw Him - John 6:44 -

I and my Father are one - John 10:30

And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me John 12:32 -

I don't see the Lord speaking of drawing all MANKIND to Him. He will draw men, and according to these verses, the Father, and He, who are One, will draw men to Him, and whoever His Father draws to Him, He is not going to cast out, because these were given by the Father to Him.

Your case for Jesus being Savior of all mankind does not stand, therefore.

God enables men, but God only enables men whom He foreknew and whom He gave to Christ, whose names were written in the Lamb's book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

 

Absolutely! When you dated your wife people might have said of you that you wooed her to yourself. This attempt was a strong drawing surrounding her and she apparently responded to your call.

Why do some resist. Matthew thirteen gives you your answer. Each person who resists Christ has their own reason and those who believe to life have their determination as to what swayed them into a saving trust in Jesus.

God does not need to look down through eternity until the last believer steps into the church/Kingdom of God. This is the way some Calvinists and Arminians speak of God dealing with a more Biblical understanding of Scripture. The fact is, that Almighty God because of His Omniscience has always known who were/will beHis elect. But His election was based on who responded to the inner calling of the Spirit of God in the life of the sinner.

 

Matthew 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, "Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 He said to them, "An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, "Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 But he said, "No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

I'm assuming your Bible reads differently than mine. Perhaps in your Bible, Jesus says, "Let both grow together and maybe the wheat will preach the Gospel to the tares so that they can choose to become wheat of their own free will."

 

Npetreley said: