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Question on Justification

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Jun 22, 2003.

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  1. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I take it that you have decided to stop digging the hole you were in any deeper. Wise choice, my friend. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]No, it has nothing to do with digging holes, but I do stop going in circles with you. Your failure to understand the basics of God's plan of salvation causes one to attempt various methods of explanation that simply result in digression from commonality. The End!
     
    #21 Yelsew, Jun 23, 2003
  2. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Brethren,

    Christ did say to the Jews that Abraham longed to see His day and he saw it and rejoiced therein. This speaks to me that he (Abraham) was justified eternally because of the finished work of Christ. It is certain that on the mount of transfiguration Christ could have stepped over into His Glory, but only if He could have disobeyed the Will of the Father.

    If He had done this, then there would be no basis of justification, neither eternally nor experientially.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 26.53-58
     
    #22 Frogman, Jun 23, 2003
  3. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Now what is different in what you just said, than what I've been saying?
     
    #23 Yelsew, Jun 23, 2003
  4. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    I think it is better to think of it is terms of eternal and certain.

    It is eternal in the sense that it will definitely happen to those whom God has chosen.

    It is certain in the sense that it will be experience in the life of those whom God has chosen.

    It is both/and, not either/or.
     
    #24 Gunther, Jun 23, 2003
  5. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks Gunther for your contribution.

    Here are some more of my thoughts I think are in line with what you have posted:

    This subject (justification) is something I would like to study further as it seems that some may, (though) I do not know the heart of others, nor the degree of wisdom God has granted to them. I believe many have come to look at justification as occurring at the point of repentance and then believers become justified in the sight of God. I am certain that all who have been justified in eternity past were so only in Christ and that not one of these will fail to be visited upon by the Holy Spirit because of their sinfulness and not one of them will fail to repent because of this natural condition and not one of them will fail to be raised at the last day by the power of God IMHO the Spirit of Holiness that raised Christ (Romans 1.4).

    God Bless
    Bro.Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 26.53-58
     
    #25 Frogman, Jun 23, 2003
  6. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Brethren,
    Was Judas justified? If justification is conditional it would seem as though by necessity he was.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 26.53-58
     
    #26 Frogman, Jun 24, 2003
  7. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Ok, so no one wants to discuss Judas. I can live with that.

    Thought I would place the following link here for you brethren to read:

    Richardson on Justification
     
    #27 Frogman, Jun 24, 2003
  8. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    Frogman, finally checking in again.

    Judas was certainly not justified.

    Justification is a forensic declaration of righteousness. Judas is referred to by Christ as the son of destruction (John 17), John as a devil (John 6), and Peter in a negative light (Acts 1).

    There is no reason to believe he was justified.

    As far as the experience of justification goes, Paul specifically used Abraham and David as examples of justification by faith. Justification can not be accomplished any other way. It appears as though Primitive baptists have missed the boat on this issue.
     
    #28 Gunther, Jun 24, 2003
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Which definition of "Forensic" are you using? The noun or the adjective?
     
    #29 Yelsew, Jun 25, 2003
  10. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Frogman:

    I fear you are holding a non-Evangelical / heretical position (e.g., "eternal justification"). Advocated by Gill, it is a hallmark of Hyper-Calvinism.

    Justification is by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone.

    "Therefore, having been justified by faith..."
    Romans 5:1

    Justification occurs in time. Prior to belief / faith, one is not justified. When one embraces the Lord Jesus as Savior through faith, then that person is "saved" (justified).

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith...."
    Ephesians 2:8


    Rev. G
     
    #30 Rev. G, Jun 26, 2003
  11. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    BTW, Judas Iscariot was never justified.
    Those who are justified will be glorified (Romans 8). Judas was a "son of perdition."
     
    #31 Rev. G, Jun 26, 2003
  12. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Seems to me you don't have the answer either.
     
    #32 Yelsew, Jun 26, 2003
  13. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Well what do you believe, Yelsew? If you believe neither sola fide nor justification from eternity, then you must believe something really, really unorthodox. Do you believe in justification by faith and works? Justification following sanctification?
     
    #33 Rev. G, Jun 28, 2003
  14. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Let's see, I went back and found this:

    Seems you are much, much closer to the "eternal justification" view. Nonetheless, your statements are quite convoluted.
     
    #34 Rev. G, Jun 28, 2003
  15. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Seems you are much, much closer to the "eternal justification" view. Nonetheless, your statements are quite convoluted. </font>[/QUOTE]Compared to what?
     
    #35 Yelsew, Jun 28, 2003
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    You posted my belief!

    Without Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world, there is no Justification...Period!

    Without individual belief in Jesus Christ there is no sanctification...Period!

    Salvation is by Faith ALONE! Neither works nor sin figures into Salvation!
     
    #36 Yelsew, Jun 28, 2003
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I can't help but believe that if people are justified in the womb then the salvation worked by the sacrifice of Christ at the Cross is a universal work that will save universally every man woman and child.

    Doesn't salvation take into itself and include justification.

    I further understand sanctification to be a work of the Holy Spirit; in separating believers to conforming to the image of Christ

    Bro. Dallas Eaton

    Matt. 26.6-16
     
    #37 Frogman, Jun 28, 2003
  18. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    Justification is eternal. The Old Testament saints were completely and perfectly justified in Christ as we are, but the administration of Old Testament did not make that so clear. So, as far as their consciences were concerned, they were not in the full light of their justification which only comes through the Gospel (Heb. 9:9).

    http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Doctrinal_Divinity/Book_2/book2_05.htm
     
    #38 Primitive Baptist, Jun 28, 2003
  19. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    What can man do that justifies him to God? NOTHING! But God became flesh and willfully sacrificed himself in our stead to justify us before Himself.

    Only in this sense. By being justifed by Jesus, our faith in God is counted unto us as righteousness because the penalty we owe for sin has been paid by Jesus' death on the cross. That Happened 2000 years ago before any of us today were conceived. Therefore we were justified before conception, or as some would say, eternally justified.

    Belief in Jesus separates believers from the unbelievers. Faith empowers us to conform to Christ. None of which is possible without the Holy Spirit.
     
    #39 Yelsew, Jun 28, 2003
  20. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks Primitive Baptist for the link to Gill. I am reading Pink at the present time on this subject.

    Brethren, so all will know, Rev. G's post aside, I am in agreement with Gill.

    Whether this makes me hyper or no, I do not know. I only believe what I can see and do know.

    I realize there is a time that even the elect will feel the heat of the wrath of God, but I cannot think or imagine these will ever stand in a position of being eternally condemned. If so, then our teaching denies the elect of God.

    So, eternally, IMHO, the elect were justified in Christ, in time they are made to know this justification as the eternal position in Christ Jesus alone. This too is by faith, and this faith also is a gift of God to them. They are not nor cannot be justified from a dead faith, so then it is by regeneration that the Spirit bears witness to the truth of Scripture and of the Gospel and of the application of the Blood of the Lamb and the imputation of the Righteousness of Christ on their persons. All this by the witness of the Holy Spirit and not found in any religious scheme, or practice.

    Bro Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 26.6-16
     
    #40 Frogman, Jun 28, 2003
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