Question on wine?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Jordan Kurecki, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    just read this today

    Numbers 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

    Strongs says this:ן
    yayin
    yah'-yin
    From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

    I've also been reading John chapter 2 over and over again this month.

    John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

    Zodhiates says that the word wine there in the greek implies intoxication.
    also I looked up the phrase have well drunk and this is the definition I've gotten from Strongs

    μεθύω
    methuō
    meth-oo'-o
    From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).

    This is also the same word used in
    Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

    1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

    Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    Based on that wouldn't one have to conclude that Jesus did indeed create fermented wine?

    Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
    Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

    It starts off with tarry long at the wine, could this possibly be implying the over consumption of it?

    I'm just wondering and trying to think through this without presuppositions and just look at it textually and contextually.

    Is there something I'm not seeing?

    What are your thoughts?

    Disclaimer:at this point in time I do not believe drinking any amount of alcohol for the purpose of recreation i acceptable I am just starting to ponder this now.
     
  2. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,272
    Likes Received:
    620
    Yes, after being told most of my life that it was grape juice I came to conclude that it was fermented wine. People do not get "well drunk" on grape juice. Also, it being fermented wine is more miraculous than it being grape juice since fermentation implies aging and Christ created it in an instant.

    Other verses that led me to the same conclusion was the admonition that bishops "not be given to wine" whereas deacon were to be "not given to much wine". 1 Tim. 3:3 and 3:8. Also that older women were to be "not given to much wine".

    If this was grape juice why is the instruction for deacons and older women to not be given too much of it?
     
  4. Judith

    Judith
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    10
  5. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    There is one type of wine in the NT, alcoholic wine. There is no other option.

    Jesus created fermented wine that would have, if consumed in excess, caused people to get drunk.
     
  6. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Half his definitions are wrong. For example, gleukos does not mean "new wine," but "sweet wine," probably white wine, as opposed to red.

    While shekhar is indeed the Hebrew for "strong drink," he utterly fails to mention that the word yah'in appears in the Old Testament 132 times and meant fermented wine, in other words, alcoholic wine.

    He literally makes up lies regarding a thick unintoxicating paste as representing "wine" in the Old Testament. Looking up the word yah'in disproves his premise over and over and over again. It is obvious it is liquid, and intoxicating.

    He further lies about Greek culture believing drinking unmixed wine was "barbaric," and he deliberately misquotes a misquote -- Stein quoting Mnesitheus of Athens, a physician of great renown in the 4th century B.C. He further misuses this source because, even if he had quoted Stein quoting Mnesitheus accurately -- and neither of them did so -- Israel of the 4th century B.C. was almost completely unknown to the Greeks.

    Finally, this work is presented as MacArthur smiting alcohol, and that isn't MacArthur's view. I've done some research on this paper, and it isn't complete, nor accurate. It comes from [URL="http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-380/christians-and-alcohol]this sermon[/URL] and doesn't begin to touch on the subject matter of alcohol and Christians as that message did.

    Essentially, MacArthur does not condemn drinking. The paper implies he does. It does imply drunkenness. The paper makes no distinction between the two. To the forger of this paper, drinking and drunkenness are one and the same.

    Whoever he is, he is a liar. And the work is to be rejected outright.
     
  7. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    So whats your opinion of the OP?
     
  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the fact that the Hebrew yah'in and the Greek oinos both indicate fermented wine and that both could be drank in moderation is a strong indication that Jesus drank fermented wine, as did most who lived in the times of either testament.
     
  9. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    This is the general agreement of scholarship...as well as my position. :thumbsup:
     
  10. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    So if this is true, than drinking alcohol is acceptable? how much alcohol is considered too much?

    Here's another thought, in the old testament the priesthood was required to abstain from wine, Should not we as the new testament priesthood also abstain?
     
  11. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Drunkeness is unacceptable. The Bible even gives us examples of people in a drunken state.

    Look at the context more closely concerning priests.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,184
    Likes Received:
    326
    Teetotaling Christians is a modern and American trend.

    Wine has been known historically and universally as a food or an enhancer of food and in moderation a natural preventative medicine against many health issues.

    Mark 7
    18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
    19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
    20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
    21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
    22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
    23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.​

    So then in this context drunkeness is to seek relief of life's misery from the alcohol rather than to seek the Lord out of the above mentioned pride and foolishness.​

    The only reason I see for Christian abstainance is to prevent the brethren from deep offense which, depending on the local church, I have abstained (but not always) from alcohol.​

    HankD​
     
    #12 HankD, Dec 13, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,246
    Likes Received:
    1,324
    Couple of points that need to be understood in order to understand that is meant by "wine" in the bible.

    In bible times there was not "hard liquor." Distillation of hard liquor did not come about until the middle ages.

    When we see wine being drunk in the bible it was real, alcohol containing wine. However, the people did not drink it straight. They mixed it with water at the rate of between 4 and 10 parts water to 1 part wine. This not only prevented intoxication, the alcohol in the wine also purified the water.

    When wine was drunk without diluting it in water it was called "strong drink" (see various references in the Old Testament).

    The miracle at the wedding of Cana was that Jesus made mixed wine. That is, wine mixed with water (note it was made in the water pots). What the passage is saying is that the wine/water that Jesus made was far superior to that made by the vintner and used at the wedding. Everything that Jesus does is far superior to what man can do.
     
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,246
    Likes Received:
    1,324
    Drinking alcohol is acceptable. Drunkenness is not. Enough to make you drunk is too much. Try watering it down with water or club soda, or even 7-up. Between 4 and 10 to one. :)
    Only when their course of service was serving in the temple. Neither was he to eat vinegar, any grape juice, nor eat moist grapes, or dried (raisins).

    The Old Testament Priesthood pre-figured the person and ministry of Christ, not us. :)
     
  15. Jacob_Elliott

    Jacob_Elliott
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ah, beat me too it!
     
  16. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,659
    Likes Received:
    190
    Where are you getting this idea?

    Nowhere does it say that it was "mixed wine."

    Also nowhere does the passage indicate it was made in the pots used for ceremonial washing. In fact, the Greek word that is translated "draw", as in the phrase, "draw some out now", is is word that is used for hoisting water up a well or from the bottom of a ship (ballast), not for taking liquid out of pots.

    Observant Jews would not likely want to drink the water from the pots for ceremonial washing, just as modern Westerners would not want to drink water pooled in a public restroom sink.

    I realize much has been made about the number and capacity of the water pots over the years, but the picture that is painted in the miracle is that the ceremonial law (represented by the water pots) is filled up - completed - and God is bringing something new and better from the source of the ceremonial law (the well).
     
  17. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed. The mixing with water was only done by those very poor or during famines.
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,246
    Likes Received:
    1,324
    It's called "History." Try it. You might like it. :)
     
  19. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    The command to not drink was only when they were serving in the temple. When they were outside the temple, they were allowed to drink. I do not see any prohibition in the New Testament for believers to not drink so I don't think that we can equate New Testament believers with Old Testament priests.

    In my opinion, consumption of alcohol is acceptable but each person must decide for himself if it is wise in his life situation. In our case, our senior pastor has asked that all staff not partake and so we do not.
     
  20. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,355
    Likes Received:
    0
    The miracle of the wedding at Cana where Jesus turned the water into wine (the first recorded miracle of his ministry) is such a great story, and yet is seldom preached on in Baptist churches because of the wine.

    I have preached on this miracle, but I can think of only once, and that is a shame because there is so much there.

    • There is the fact that Jesus was invited to the wedding, as we should invite Jesus to be a part of our marriages and families. And when Jesus was invited, he came didn’t he.
    • There is the faith of Mary. They wanted wine, and Mary knew where to turn.
    • There is the obedience of the servants. Even when they did not understand or it made no sense, they obeyed Christ anyway.
    • Wine itself is a beautiful picture of our lives with Christ. Wine is fermented, it is alive and active, it is not dead. There is a reason we call alcoholic beverages “sprits” And the Holy Sprit comes into our life and makes all the difference.
    • Jesus took something worthless and dead, water. It has no taste, no flavor, no nutricianal value, and Jesus turned into wine. Something of value, something that adds to our nutrician, something with flavor, something that has the power to make life sweeter and better.
    • And of course what Jesus made, was declared good by the ruler of the feast and better than that wine made my men.
    • Of course the fact that he used the ceremonial waterpots, that Jesus fulfilled the law.
    [/SIZE]
     

Share This Page

Loading...