Question Romans 11:6

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Keazy, May 12, 2010.

  1. Keazy

    Keazy
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    I'm sure this is a very basic question to most of you but it has confused me. While following Dr Walter's thread on Romans 11 and reading chapter 11, it says:

    "But if it is by grace (speaking of God's gracious choice in verse 5), it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

    I know His choice was never based on works so what does this mean? Those in the OT were saved in the same way as we are - they looked forward to the cross and we look back to the cross.

    Thank you for your help - I'm sure this won't be the last question I'll have. I'm looking forward to having a place to go with my questions no matter how elementary they are.
     
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    I believe that Judaism had so apostized from the truth of the gospel that the temple, its ceremonies, laws and preisthood which by Divine design were to symbolize the grace of God in salvation and reveal sin and lead them to Christ, were transformed into means of salvation. Thus vehicles to teach grace had been perverted to make grace inclusive of works.

    I believe Paul was refuting the idea that grace can be defined to include works. Most of the Christian world define grace to include works.



     
  3. AnotherBaptist

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    Note the tense in the verse you quoted. Does it ever say "was"?

    The real answer to your question is in Hebrews 11. To the OT saint, faith was reckoned as righteousness and thus they were Saved by that faith. To the Church saint, our faith is not our own, it is a gift (Ephesians 2:8,9) and our Righteousness is not "reckoned" from anything, It is Jesus Christ's.

    The common thread of faith (in the Gospel) was the Savior. They called Him "Redeemer" as they didn't know His name. We do...it's Jesus. :)
     
  4. Keazy

    Keazy
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    Dr Walter:
    I agree the Jewish people in the OT sought God through the law and Paul was refuting that idea. After reading and re-reading this passage for most of the day, studying the content and praying for understanding, I think I understand it better:

    1. God has not rejected those whom he foreknew (chosen people) from the OT

    2. Elijah thought he was the only saved person left

    3. But God told him there was a remnant of 7000 more that were faithful to Him

    4. Now IN THE SAME WAY (there’s another remnant which God foreknew - both remnants were chosen by God’s grace)

    5. In :6-7, Israel tried to seek God’s salvation by good works (law) and didn’t obtain it

    6. but the chosen ones, both Old and New Testament saints, did obtain it by grace

    Another Baptist:

    No the word “was” was not used in :6. But, when I read “it is no longer on the basis of works” I was thinking it was saying at one time it was. I knew that was not true so I knew I obviously was getting something confused (not the first or the last time I’m sure).

    I agree our faith is a gift of God in the New Testament as it was in the Old Testament and that our righteousness is not our own but it is Christ’s righteousness imputed/reckoned to us through our faith in Him.


    Thank you both for your help!! Isn’t His grace amazing?
     
  5. Skandelon

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    This may be oversimplifying a more complicated answer, but the reason it is NO LONGER based on works, is because Christ has fulfilled the demands of the law. In other words, he has done the work. Now, the "new righteousness being revealed from heaven" (which we know is not really "NEW"), is a righteousness that comes not through the law but through grace. (ref. Rom. 3-5)
     
  6. Keazy

    Keazy
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    "but the reason it is NO LONGER based on works"

    But that was my problem - Scripture, in total context, doesn't say salvation was ever based on works. The words "no longer" imply it was at one time.

    I fully believe that Christ has paid it all and even our righteousness is actually His.

    Thanks
     
  7. Skandelon

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    But salvation is based on works, just not ours.
     
  8. saturneptune

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    IMO, the best place in the Bible to view a relationship between works and faith/grace is the book of James. Works before faith produces nothing but a ticket to hell. Works follows after faith or there was no faith to begin with.
     
  9. Keazy

    Keazy
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    I agree 100%. Our works prove our faith not cause it!!!
     
  10. Keazy

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    Absolutely - I like the way you stated it!!
     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    I agree with you up to a certain point. I agree that works manifest your faith BEFORE MEN (James 2:18) but works do not determine the existence of faith BEFORE GOD (Rom. 4:1). James deals with the court of human assessment ("say to me.....show me...I will show you..).

    Case in point is the Old Testament Lot. If you were to judge his salvation based upon the information provided strictly by the information given in the Old Testament you would conclude he must be a lost man. The last word we have about him in the Old Testament account is drunk and committing incest with his daughters. In the New Testament Peter gives us insight into something the Old Testament never reveals - his heart, saying that the wickedness greived his heart and calls him a "righteous man". Peter did not know him personally. The Old Testament record provides no such revelation. This was conveyed to Peter directly by God through inspiration.

    On the other hand, Jesus assigns to hell those who claim to have done supernatural and wonderful works and all "in thy name" - Mt. 7:21-23. They professed to be his "Lord, Lord" and they professed to have done many wonderful works and Christ never denied what they claimed,he just denied he ever knew them. This takes place at judgement before an all knowing God/man. He knew them and everything about them. However, he NEVER knew them in a saving justifying sense and therefore all their works were as filthy rags before him but may have been sensationally rightoues before men.

    Good and bad works determine rewards and MAY reveal to men who is really saved and who is not but they never determine who has salvation and who does not. Children of God living like Lot as recorded in the Old Testament have no assurance of salvation to themselves or others, lost their joy, lost their witness, lost their rewards and may lose their lives but no doubt Lot is an example of what Paul says was a soul "saved though as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).
     

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