Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Shiloh, Jan 4, 2007.
According to the SDA, ultimately our sins are where?
Ultimately our sins are on the scapegoat, who is Satan. The originator of evil who tempted all of us and thus ultimately is responsible for our sins. NOT as an atonement. Jesus made the atonement and has already paid for our sins.
You have to study the Sanctuary topic to understand what this means. and Satan ultimately gets thrown into the lake of fire to burn for the same reason, along with his evil angels he deceived. For they too tempted and deceived everyone into sin.
Isaiah 14 is speaking of Satan actually, he is ultimately the one who caused all of this misery:
1: For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2: And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3: And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4: That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5: The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6: He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7: The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8: Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9: Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10: All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11: Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15: Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16: They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17: That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
If our sins are on Satan, then how can they be paid for by Christ?
the RESPONSIBILITY for causing the sins is on Satan. Because he is the one who tempted and deceived us, that is why he along with his evil angels ultimately also get thrown into the Lake of Fire. The scapegoat gets the sins of the people ultimately placed upon him IN THE END fo the entire Sanctuary doctrine... and led out into the wilderness..
symbolizing he cant deceive anyone anymore now...
also shown in the 1,000 years of BEING BOUND... meaning he cant deceive anyone during that time...
Rv:20:7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
then Satan gives it one last try here on earth...
: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
In the Sanctuary doctrine, the scapegoat gets the sins of the people ultimately placed upon HIS head since he caused it all... NOT as an atonement, and "led out into the wilderness" also symbolized by what it says in Revelation 20 above... the 1,000 years of being bound in the wilderness because at that time he cannot deceive anyone... thus he is "bound" in the wilderness... scapegoat sent out into the wildernes...
Please read this, speaking of the same thing, Satan, once Lucifer... gets brought to ASHES and "never shall he be anymore" he gets thrown into Hell ultimately since hes the one who caused everything to begin with... like in Garden of Eden when God prounounced sentence upon Adam and Eve THEN upon the serpent himself... because HE CAUSED IT...
6: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7: Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8: They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9: Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10: Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11: Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12: Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13: Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15: Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16: By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19: All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Read this little scenario at the START of this entire Great Controversy between Christ and Satan...
You have your SINNERS, Adam and Eve, who get sentence pronounced upon THEM
then you have SATAN the serpent who gets sentence pronounced upon HIM
then you have JESUS who provides the ATONEMENT...
The entire thing is RIGHT HERE encapsulated... and IN THE SANCTUARY PROCEDURES and AT THE END... this entire thing is played out once again... so to speak... with SATAN, the scapegoat getting just what he deserves since hes the one who did the tempting and deceiving of all mankind...
12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18: Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19: In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20: And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21: Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
(that last verse applies to Jesus, along with verse 15)
In the entire Sanctuary doctrine, you have your lamb and then you have your scapegoat and you have the sins of the people.
LOOK. see how Jesus gets bruised on just the heel but it is SATAN who gets bruised ON THE HEAD?
15: And I will put enmity between thee (Satan) and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
ULTIMATELY, Satan pays the price for all sin. Jesus just got killed temporarily after having the sins of mankind placed upon Him and making atonement ...
BUT Satan ... well have you ever heard that saying "It's all on YOUR head" ???
the scapegoat gets everything placed upon HIS head... because it was HIS responsibility, his FAULT that all the sins happened in the first place.
doesnt mean he is somehow atoning for the sin, Jesus already did that.
But Satan gets thrown into the lake of fire... after wandering around like the scapegoat in the wilderness... being "bound" because he is incapacitated and cannot deceive anyone for 1,00o years.
I won't use as many words as you as I won't beat around the bush. IF our sins are placed on satan and he is "cast out" then satan becoms the savior and the Blessed Lord Jesus would have died in vain. That is what makes the SDA a cult.
that is ridiculous. not to mention unreasonable.
Shiloh, I agree with you.
that is ridiculous. not to mention unreasonable.
You are exactly right. :thumbsup: I have a sister in law in PA. who was/is a SDA. Not sure, she is confused about a lot of things. Her and I have gone round and round about this before. You can read all the Scripture you want to but you will never find any where the Bible tell us that our sins are placed on the devil. Honey, if you believe this SDA cultly junk you need to get saved!
On the Day of Atonement two kids of the goats were brought to the door of the tabernacle, and lots were cast upon them, "one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat." Leviticus 16:8.
The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners.
and it is just ridiculous that you act as if we are claiming that Satan is making atonement for us, we never say anything of the kind.
Its as if you people are willing to do anything to make SDAs out to be a "cult". You need to upgrade your tactics at least. Nobody EVER said Satan makes atonement for our sins.
the scapegoat is simply symbolic of Satan. He is part of this entire thing that has been going on with sin problem here on earth and the Plan of Redemption.
Satan is the one who started this entire sin problem.
all the sins are ultimately placed upon his head because he is the one responsible for tempting and deceiving everyone. Its a very simple concept.
So what is the need for Christ then?
Hey, you don't have to raise your voice. I don't believe it any more when it's in large print. If you are basing your entire doctrine on this one verse that uses the word scapegoat ("az-aw-zale"goat of departure; the scapegoat: - scapegoat.) and it's used now where else, you are in trouble. Some one sold you a false bill of goods honey, admit it.
the scapegoat was never slain.
One goat was chosen to be offered to the Lord, the other was to be a scapegoat, or as the margin reads, it was for Azazel. Azazel was another name for Satan. Thus, on this particular day two goats were chosen, one for the Lord and one to represent Satan.
or as the margin reads, it was for Azazel.
Oh I'm sorry, I don't read the margin very much. In fact I can't find it in the margin of my Bible. By the way how many times is the word Azazel used in Scripture and where can I find it in the NT?
Shiloh, I agree with you. by SBC. Now I'm worried....maybe I'm going
soft? :tongue3: Just kidding.
:laugh: Both of us better be careful or we will ruin our reputations around here. :smilewinkgrin:
well what do you think is the need for Christ then? to make atonement for our sins.