Question to the GES: Deity of Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Aug 19, 2007.

?

Open Poll: Can a lost man be born again while consciously rejecting His Deity?

Poll closed Sep 18, 2007.
  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    8.8%
  2. No

    30 vote(s)
    88.2%
  3. I'm Not Sure

    1 vote(s)
    2.9%
  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    To All:

    The defining question below is primarily directed to Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, John Niemela, Jeremy Myers, Antonio da Rosa and any advocate of the position on the Gospel coming from the Grace Evangelical Society .

    In the thread under the blog entry, How Much Information is Really Needed,? Antonio da Rosa posted this statement,

    Antonio's interpretation of the Gospel is identical with Hodges, Wilkin, & Myers. For example see these excerpts from Zane Hodges in the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society , Spring 2001.

    This interpretation of the Gospel, coming from Zane Hodges and the GES, has come to be known as the:
    Crossless” gospel.


    With the teaching of the “Crossless” gospel advocates established I am primarily directing this question to Zane Hodges, Wilkin, Myer, Niemela and da Rosa.

    Can a lost man be born again while
    consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ?



    LM
     
    #1 Lou Martuneac, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  2. blackbird

    blackbird
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    Jesus said "He who denies the Son, denies also the Father!"

    No one is born again without repenting of their sins and receiving Jesus as God in flesh!
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Fact is, according to what Paul preached to the Church at Corinth, one must believe in what the Scriptures proclaim concerning the death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they believe He was buried, and that they believe that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. One must believe these things, or their belief in Jesus is in vain.

    A person who says we don't have to believe that Jesus died on the cross is preaching another gospel.
    Enough said.
     
    #3 standingfirminChrist, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2007
  4. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    I wonder how many of the ME'ers believe one can be saved apart from hearing the message of the cross?
     
  5. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    It Gets Worse

    The GES camp (Hodges, Wilkin, Myers, da Rosa) view what you just cited from Scripture, belief in the death and resurrection of Christ, as unnecessary additions to the Gospel.

    Their "Crossless" position is that all a lost person must believe is Jesus is the Giver of eternal life and he is born again.

    They go so far as to state that the lost man does need to know or understand he is a sinner and still can be born again ONLY by believing Jesus is he Giver of eernal life.

    They view the Gospel of John with such passion that for them it trumps and negates the rest of the NT on the doctrine of salvation/the Gospel.


    LM
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley
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    It depends. Which ME salvation are you talking about? Salvation of the spirit? Soul? Body? Feet? Toes? Toenails? Toejam?
    .
     
    #6 npetreley, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  7. Amy.G

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    The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what separates Him from the false christs.

    You must believe all of it or you will believe in a false christ, or no christ at all.
     
  8. Amy.G

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    NP, it doesn't surprise me that you want to want to save your toejam! :laugh: :laugh:
     
  9. npetreley

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    :tongue3: I fixed it so it says "ME salvation".
     
  10. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
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    well said.
     
  11. Amy.G

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    I think ME and toejam make a nice pair. They both stink!:laugh:
     
  12. npetreley

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    You think it's bad where YOU are? It looks like most of them are in Texas, so the stench is worse here.

    I didn't want to derail the "It's a mystery to me" thread, but I've been sorely tempted to post "Grace is a Mystery to ME" or even "Sound Doctrine is a Mystery to ME". ;)
     
  13. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Thanks for the note. The "Crossless" advocates reject the idea that a sinner must believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. They dismss the plain teaching of 1 Cor. 15:3-4 and Romans 10:9-10.

    They state that the sinner doen not even need to know anythng about these events and still can be saved.


    LM
     
  14. Mr.M

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    Let's say, at face value, the selected quotes by LM are a thorough representation of the soteriology of GES and these men. And for argument's sake I need look no further than these selected quotes and LM's intimations.

    My response would be this:

    Many believers can and will, particularly those coming to faith at an early age, testify to the fact that there are many details of the work of Christ executing the plan of God for man's salvation that they did not know and cannot say they believed at that moment. They can state clearly that they knew they were a sinner, deserved hell and believed Christ died for their sins. The minimalist, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

    However, (and again I invoke the first paragraph, everything being as LM presents it) anyone approaching the gospel as described by LM in his description of GES and these men, is making a mistake and that is the mistake of isolating the most minimal experience of one or some and placing all humans at that point in their lives regarding the gospel.

    All me to illustrate what I mean.

    Picture a pool of water and a man lying right next to the pool, then a woman 25 ft away from the pool, then a boy sitting in a swing 100 yards away and then a man in his car two blocks from the pool city in his driveway.

    How does each one get in the pool? Why jump of course. However, each person has unique obstacles before they can jump. While some are right by the pool, the obstacles are minimal and while some are not. And while each person may traverse their unique obstacles, until they jump...i.e. believe...they will not get in the pool. But attempting to place all subjects by the pool and disregard their real position and the real obstacles to genuinely placing them where they can jump is foolish and naive.

    So the woman 25 yards away must travel 25 yards. What does that represent? Take your choice but obviously she must deal with more than the man lying next to the pool.

    Take the child who grew up in a home with the gospel. I did. The gospel was clear, I knew I needed to be saved. I grew up understanding I needed to be saved. I knew Jesus was my Savior, I was as positioned as one can get, by the pool.

    But go to someone without that frame of reference, they are further from the pool, i.e. the truth of the gospel. They need a frame of reference in order to respond to something. No one in their right mind honestly responds to something to which they don't properly understand or for which they have little or no frame of reference. Does it mean each and every doctrine related to salvation has to be covered? No, it means you as the Ambassador of Christ must use discernment to determine what obstacles are present that must be covered that they may be brought to the edge of the pool. Maybe it is the deity of Christ or maybe another issue or several, but as an effective witness you must make that area clear that they may continue on to the edge of the pool.

    And in this way, those that ignore where each person uniquely stands regarding their capacity and frame of reference to understand the gospel will rob from that person the true path to the "pool". Instead they will simply tell the man or woman 100 ft or a mile away, jump and your are in the pool and it simply is not true.

    While it is TRUE for some and it is true for ALL once they get beside the pool, when we witness to someone we must DISCERN where they are, the obstacles and the distance they are from understanding the gospel that they may indeed be brought next to the pool and it is there we can implore them: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and Thou Shalt Be Saved"!
     
    #14 Mr.M, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  15. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Verification

    Hi:

    If you want further and complete verification visit my site and peruse the articles under the Zane Hodges and/or Crossless Gospel labels. Follow the links to the writing of Hodges.

    Several articles appear under both label headings.

    I trust you will find these helpful.


    LM
     
  16. Mr.M

    Mr.M
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    Thanks and please take that statement simply as a qualifier for the sake of getting to the crux of the debate.
     
  17. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    This crossless faith is what is being taught in many of the emerging Church circles.

    They suggest man doesn't need to focus on the cross. To do so is blood thristy. All we need to do is just follow Jesus.

    As a comparison the EC teaches that following Jesus without the cross is possible and the ME folks teach that going to the cross wothout following Jesus is possible. Both are "other gospels". Both are heresy.
     
  18. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    1. I'm not surprise to find the crossless "gospel" among the Emergent Communicants.

    2. There's no gospel/good news of salvation without the scandal of the cross of Christ (1 Cor 1:18-31). Period.
     
  19. Lazarus

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    Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    You must Believe in your Heart the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.

    Pretty simple concept really!
     
  20. Watchman

    Watchman
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    The Lord Jesus made it quite plain "Unless ye believe that I Am He, ye shall die in your sins." Please note that "He" is in italics; so it is: "Unless ye believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins"
    Remember the burning bush?
     

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