Questioning My belief in pre trib rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Doeroftheword80, Nov 25, 2014.

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  1. Doeroftheword80

    Doeroftheword80
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    Hello Everyone. I have been doing a bible study on the prophecies of the second coming and today I was reading Matthew 24 and it spoke about the elect and it makes me wonder if the elect means Christians and if that is so does that mean We will be in the trbulation?

    22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

    The other thing that makes Me wonder is 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever

    Id like some opinion on this . Thanks for reading and responding. God Bless
     
  2. jonathan.borland

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    Welcome to the Baptist Board. Pre-trib rapture advocates would say that the elect there refers to those who come to belief during the tribulation.

    Pre-trib advocates make a distinction between "touchdown" verses and "in the air" verses. "Touchdown" verses refer to Jesus coming at the end of the tribulation for the battle of Armageddon and setting up the millennial reign, while "in the air" verses refer to the rapture. Of course, they classify 1 Thess 4:16 as an "in the air/rapture" verse.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    And they ignore John 5:28, 29!
     
  4. DHK

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  5. DHK

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    This is MacArthur's answer to that exact passage:

    It is just part of another sermon that you can find here:
    http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1509B/the-two-resurrections

     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Welcome to the BB.

    Some understand Mt 24 to be speaking as it says to that generation....those who actually were on earth when Jesus was.
    They understand Mt 24 to speak of the last days of Israel theocracy...Mt 21:43

    They also understand 1 thes 4 to speak of the last day.
     
  7. OldRegular

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    Much as I admire MacArthur he is a pre-trib-dispensationalists. He basically ignores John 5:28, 29 but that is common among pre-trib-dispensationalists.
     
  8. OldRegular

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  9. Tom Butler

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    The first teaching I ever heard on the end-times was the pre-trib rapture viewpoint. Then, a new pastor at my church preached from a post-trib view. After the service, we rushed to the front to challenge him.

    He held up his hand and said, "OK, we're not going to debate this right now. You have an assignment. Search the scriptures and bring back every verse which clearly, unmistakeably and incrontrovertibly teaches a pre-trib rapture."

    His point was that for such an important doctrine, there ought to be clear scripture which leaves no doubt and and is not subject to any other interpretation.

    I'm still looking.
     
  10. DHK

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    You can't ignore the truth OR.
    He states it fairly well as he does in most of his sermons.
     
  11. T Alan

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    Old Regular is simply wrong Well, that settles it doesn't it.
     
    #11 T Alan, Nov 25, 2014
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  12. convicted1

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    You could say the same thing about those in the amill, post, and historical pre-mill camps, too. That wouldn't make them wrong just because they disagree with your view...

    As the old saying goes, "to each his own..."
     
  13. OldRegular

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    It is not there. The pre-trib-rapture is the invention of John Nelson Darby. He claims he found it in Isaiah 32!

    From: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf

     
    #13 OldRegular, Nov 25, 2014
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  14. OldRegular

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    You and all pre-trib-dispensationalists are ignoring the truth taught in John 5 :28, 29. Very Sad Indeed!

    John 5:28,29, KJV
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
     
  15. DHK

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    As MacArthur lays all the Scripture out for you in his sermon which centers specifically on this passage, this passage specifically says (as it does throughout the rest of the Bible), that there are two resurrections:
    1. the resurrection of life,
    2. the resurrection of damnation.

    Scripture does not contradict scripture. We learn from other scripture that these two resurrections are separated by at least one thousand years.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    Read the entire passage please!

    John 5:28,29, KJV
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    the hour is coming, in the which all

    The Greek word translated ‘hour’ occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:

    1 a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
    1a of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter​
    2 the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
    3 a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
    4 any definite time, point of time, moment​

    Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word ‘hora’ obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

    Matthew 26:40, KJV
    40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

    Matthew 27:45, KJV
    45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

    The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment.

    Consider again:

    John 5:28,29, KJV
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    1. The hour: One period of time.

    2. All that are in the graves: All that are in the graves means all the dead!

    3. Shall hear his voice: His voice, one voice, one time.

    4. And shall come forth: All shall hear His voice and shall come forth.

    Now who comes forth?

    5. They that have done good and they that have done evil. That is all, everyone, period.


    Scripture states that there shall be one general resurrection yet some pre-trib-dispensationalists have as many as FIVE and possibly more! As shown in the following post John Walvoord former president of the Dallas Seminary has SEVEN!
     
    #16 OldRegular, Nov 25, 2014
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  17. OldRegular

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    John F. Walvoord’s Interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6.

    The following view is by John F. Walvoord, a contemporary dispensational theologian, and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary. The information is excerpted from Major Bible Prophecies, page 376ff. Please notice how Walvoord changes the First Resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 into the Fifth Resurrection.

    Note: The emphasis is mine!


     
    #17 OldRegular, Nov 25, 2014
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  18. DHK

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    And he is right. MacArthur harmonizes them all--all five, so that there are really only two resurrections in that passage.
     
  19. DHK

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    Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. His resurrection is the first resurrection.

    The second resurrection is recorded in Matthew 27:50-53. The Scriptures declare that when the earthquake occurred at the time of Christ’s resurrection, tombs were broken open and bodies of holy people who had died were raised to life.

    The third resurrection will occur in connection with the rapture of the church [1 Thessalonians. 4:13-18; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53]. At the Rapture “the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” [1 Thess. 4:16-17]. This resurrection apparently refers to everyone who is baptized into the body of Christ from the Day of Pentecost until the Rapture. Old Testament saints seem to be resurrected at a later time.

    The fourth resurrection is prophesied in Revelation 11. Two witnesses who will be killed for their testimony will be left lying in the streets of Jerusalem and will be raised from the dead on the third day [v. 8].

    The last resurrection has to do with the judgment of the Great White Throne as recorded in Revelation 20:11-15. In this resurrection all the wicked dead, who up to this time have been in Hades, will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire.

    I have posted above five of the resurrections Walvoord has in your quote.
    Let's look at them.
    But first, as far as I can tell, from what you have posted you seem to believe that there is one and only one resurrection--and that is the one referred to in John 5:28,28. Correct?

    If that be true, then you deny the resurrection of Christ, and you deny the resurrection of the saints that followed Christ, correct? If you don't deny these two resurrections then you are up to three resurrections, and four resurrections if we can demonstrate that John 5:28,29 is speaking of two resurrections.

    Walvoord also mentions the two witnesses in Revelation who will be martyred and their bodies will ascend into heaven (or be resurrected). That is a "fifth" resurrection. So there we have it. All five.
    Which do you deny?
    Two of them are past already. They are history. Do you deny them?
    Which of the remaining three do you deny?
    Why are you against Walvoord for listing them as such?
    MacArthur, I believe, groups them all into just two resurrections. But then you would have to read him to find out how he does that.

    Really, is there just one resurrection?
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Heh! You finally got something correct. Jesus Christ is the first and only resurrection to date. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are those saved through faith in Jesus Christ. Over these the second death has no power!

    There is no indication in the Bible that indicates this was a raising with a glorified body or whether these people returned to the grave.

    Could it, could it just be possible this is the pre-trib-rapture you people get so excited about? Could it?

    Certainly Christians have endured tribulation for 2000 years just as Jesus Christ promised:

    John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    Really there is just one more resurrection. The Bible teaches it, I believe it, John Nelson Darby and pre-rib-dispensationalism is simply wrong doctrine, especially their doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church, or God's interruption in His program for Israel!
     
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