Questions about Samuel Chapter 18

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Joe, Aug 20, 2008.

  1. Joe

    Joe
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    Hi everyone :)

    I have 4 or so questions about Samuel 18 if anyone can help.
    The story doesn't seem to make sense to me.

    Why King Saul was trying to kill David and a few other questions arose. I will skip much of it, only offer info pertaining to my questions.

    My understanding is Saul was impressed with David killing the Giant, bringing his head to him. David won King Sauls favor. then Saul's son Jonathan and David bonded quite instantly. It states David and Jonathan's souls were knit together, and Jonathan loved David as himself. (verse 1-4) At one point, Jonathan offered to do anything for him.

    David was in Saul's favor UNTIL (it seems) jealousy ignited regarding a few women who stated/ proclaimed they were impressed with David more than Saul because David killed more people. That's when it all seemed to head south. (Verse7)

    Saul then relentlessly tried to kill David. Plotting and bringing in others at times to take part in his schemes. His own son Jonathan had to intervene a few times to keep his best buddy alive, as did Sauls own daughter.


    It does not make sense to me.

    Why did Saul suddenly turn on David? Was it over just a few words by some women (jealousy)?

    It states Saul KNEW God was with David after he successfully killed so many Phillestine men (verse 29) This made Saul afraid, why is this?


    David finally agrees to marry Saul's daughter then kills many Phillistine men at Sauls request.(verse27) This still doesn't seem to appease Saul.
    The weird part is Saul asks David to bring back the foreskins of these men :confused: (perverse comes to mind)

    I say this because later Saul's mind appears to gets perverse again in the form of accusations at his own son Jonathan-1 Sam 20:30 "Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?"

    Is it just perverse babbling by Saul? Is Sauls mother rebellious and perverse or did he make that up? What is the accusation here?


    Saul knows David is a righteous man, that God is with him. Why would Saul be jealous of David to the point of ailenating his own son, then daughter by killing the one they love? One who is walking in God's will?
    If it is jealousy.

    Thanks for any help you all can offer.
     
    #1 Joe, Aug 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2008
  2. ReformedBaptist

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    Now THIS is a great thread. Thanks! I will offer some of my impressions in a bit. We have been actually preaching through these verses at church under the subject heading of "The Davidic Covenant" perhaps you would be interested in listening to some of the sermons, although they may not directly answer your questions.

    Sermon overview: In our ongoing series entitled 'The Lord of the Covenants' we have come to the covenant that God made with King David of the tribe of Judah. This sermon introduces the place of the Davidic covenant in the history of redemption and shows that it was the fulfillment of God's eternal purposes prophesied 1,000 years earlier by Jacob to his son Judah. God has fulfilled this covenant in Jesus Christ, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, who is presently sitting upon the throne of His father David, of whose kingdom there shall be no end.

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=815081128590

    That should link to the first sermon in the series and then they run by number..

    RB
     
  3. Marcia

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    Things go south for Saul before chapter 18. In chapter 15, Saul is rebuked by Samuel for disobeying God because he kept some of the spoils from the Amalekites after defeating them. In verse 23, Samuel tells Saul that God has rejected him as King and in verse 28, is told that God has chosen someone else to be king. I am sure this made Saul very angry and bitter.

    David is anointed king in chapter 16.

    Saul seeing David kill Goliath and have such victory when Saul knows God has rejected him (Saul) as king probably made Saul even madder. He knew that David was the new hero and moreover, probably realized God's favor was on David.

    See 18:12: "Now Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, but had departed from Saul." I think this is the key. The women singing praises and David being a hero just added to Saul's anger and jealousy that was already blossoming. Verse 28 reiterates that Saul knew God was with David. This was like rubbing salt into the wounds for Saul.
     
  4. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Hey Joe:

    Thanks for the topic. This is a really cool section of scripture. I may be long winded today, but stay with me here.

    First off, if you have not already seen it used this way this is one passage the homosexuals like to use to justify their lifestyle. (Look at 20:41) They claim that the love between Jonathan and David was sexual. That is not scriptural. These two warriors, David and Jonathan had a lot in common and fought the same enemy in the same war. They were comrades in arms, brother’s in-law, and close friends but definitely not lovers. Go find two “old war buddies” and you will know what I mean.

    There are many evidences of the fact that these guys were not homosexual. David had lots of wives and children, a lot more than if he was just looking for an heir. Jonathan had kids also.

    They key to the falling out between Saul and David is in the last part of verse 8, “what can he have more than the kingdom.” Saul wanted his kingdom to continue and his son Jonathan to be king after him. Of course God had already ruled on that.

    Remember the timeline on David’s life. Samuel had already anointed him to be king back in I Sam 16:13. At that time, the Holy Spirit had left Saul and dwelt with David. Saul had to know that the Spirit of God had left him. Samuel had told him back in I Sam 15:28 that the kingdom was taken from him. He probably did not know that David had been anointed king. Had he known this Saul would have probably killed David (if he could have). In the latter half of Samuel 16 we see that Saul hired David to be a court musician and his music soothed Saul. This was BEFORE Goliath. A lot of people miss this. David was Saul’s armor bearer and a court muscian before he killed Goliath.

    So Saul knows the Lord has taken his spirit away from him. Samuel has told him that the kingdom would be taken from him, but he really wants to keep it. And he sees David, who he really likes; 18:5 says that David was Saul’s commanding general over all the armies. But now, after he sees David’s popularity with the girls, Saul begins to see him as a threat to the throne.

    So first Saul tries to kill him with the javelin and David gets away. Then Saul demotes him. He is hoping David will pitch a fit and try to take the throne so he will have an excuse to kill him. But David “Behaves wisely.” Then Saul tries to get the Philistines to kill David. He promises him first the eldest daughter Merab. He says, “Go fight David, and you can have Merab.” But when David does not get killed Saul gives Merab to someone else anyway. Now David does not care about that because the girl he is in love with is Saul’s younger daughter Michal.

    Saul finds out that Michal and David like each other and thinks he can use this to get David killed. That is where he comes up with the 100 foreskins. Kind of gruesome, but they were proof that the men David killed were not Jews. David goes out and kills 200 and Saul is forced to honor his word and give up Michal.

    By this point at the end of chapter 18 Saul must have realized that David was going to be king in Jonathan’s place. In chapter 19 he tells everyone to kill David, but Saul’s own son and daughter protect David. Jonathan stands up to his own father and tells him he is wrong. This is where in chapter 20 Saul insults Jonathan’s mother. What he does here is calls Jonathan an SOB. I think one modern translation even translates it that way complete with the modern vulgarity. Saul, in his own mind, still thinks he is trying to kill David for Jonathan’s sake. If David is to be king then Jonathan never will. Saul is trying to give the kingdom to Jonathan, but it is no longer Saul’s to give. Jonathan surely knew by this point that the kingdom would never be his. Yet he is not vengeful but accepts God’s will.

    You want to talk about a real man, look at Jonathan. He lost the kingdom, not due to his own sin but due to his father’s. Yet he protects his friend and remains loyal to his Dad. He eventually dies in battle at his father’s side. Yet his actions in chapter 20 ensure the future of his own children. David honored his covenant with Jonathan and later when as king when he should have killed off all the heirs of the previous king he instead not only spares the life of Mephibosheth, Jonathan’s son, but makes him equal to his own sons. Jonathan’s sons and grandsons would grow up in the king’s palace, even after Jonathan himself was dead.

    Jonathan is high on my short list of people I want to talk to in heaven someday. To hear the story of I Sam 14 from the man who lived it. Jonathan in real life outdid any Stalone or Shwarzenegger action film.
     
  5. Grasshopper

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    I'll one up ya: http://www.believerschapeldallas.org/OnlineMessages/LessonsfromtheLifeofDavid/tabid/99/Default.aspx
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

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  7. Deacon

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    Two comments:

    1. The Jews were probably mocked by the heathen regarding the sacred custom of circumcision.

    What better way to terrorize and humiliate their enemies.

    The Philistine dead became ceremonial Jews; sort of humorous IMHO.

    Evangelism gone wild


    2. Re: “Thou son of a perverse rebellious woman”
    The raw, profane expressions throughout the books of Samuel are often hidden by the beautiful and poetic word-for-word literalism of some versions.

    There’s a foul three-letter expression that’s probably more akin to what Saul said; it’s suggested but not expressed in the NLT and Message.
    “You stupid son of a whore!” NLT
    “You son of a slut!” Message

    What do we know about Saul?
    He was a weak, jealous man, prone to rash impulsiveness;
    Do you expect him to speak like a poet? or an angry, threatened man?

    Rob
     
    #7 Deacon, Aug 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2008
  8. Grasshopper

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  9. Joe

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    Agreed. Trauma experienced in life can result in a strong bond between men which normally has no romantic edge to it whatsoever. Even the gay agenda being pushed by gays and shockingly, some preachers (Jack Hyles) who see homosexual tendencies in everyone can't survive.
    Teaching women to be more ladylike (as if they are now God) =mirroring the gay agenda. Labeling certain mannarisms as "feminine" or "masculine" calling someone's sexuality into question.
    Bond with the same sex and you must be a hom*. This worldy psychology is often spread by men who had too many daddies, or maybe none at all,and somehow didn't bond well with the same sex growing up. They want to bond badly with other men, yet fear going too far with them, a fallicy with no credence whatsoever.
    By placing these worldy boundaries /standards in their life above God's standards (scripture), they will never bond with other men and will always feel something is missing IMHO. I will be quiet now :) quit spewing Joe's psychology. But I see a pattern.

    Ok, now it makes sense :thumbs: Thanks alot :1_grouphug:

    I really appreciate the time you took on this post. Agreed. it is an interesting part of scripture and along with you, I admire Jonathan. Saul still perplexes me though, but I have the links from RB and Grasshopper to study from.

    Thanks to RB and Grasshopper for the links :)
     
    #9 Joe, Aug 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2008
  10. Joe

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    Eeeewww....I think I just lost my lunch. Never thought of the Jews being alive when this occured :eek: But you could be correct

    Saul didn't appear to me to have reason to be so angry, so that confused me, which is quite easy :D It now makes more sense why he was so mean to his family and David. It sounds like he had alot of pride, which is what caused Satan to fall.
     
  11. Deacon

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    I think you meant 'Phillistine'.
    I didn't really mention anything about alive but...
    Saul's statement was sort of a "dead or alive, just want their foreskins".
    David's response was an in your face, "twice as many; killed as we got um"
    Power and anger do stange things to people.
    The custom among rulers and kings was dynastic, sons would reign generation upon generation until they were eventually overthrown and fall.
    It was a veiled threat to Jonathan, "You're no son of mine, I could dispose of you and make another"

    Remember Herod, he murdered his sons, even a beloved wife as he tried in vain to manipulate the heir who would succeed him.
    Crazy, yes! Pride, yes!

    Rob
     
    #11 Deacon, Aug 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2008
  12. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    I think you would have had a hard time convincing Phillistines to give up their foreskins while they were still alive. I would be a lot easier to just kill them first.

    But Jacob's sons Simon and Levi got an entire village to accept circumcision back in Genesis 34. Of course that did not work out to well for them either.

    There are some awesome stories in this Bible, and the best part is they are true.
     
  13. Deacon

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    NCTentmaker, you wrote of something I didn't think about;
    the idea that Saul wanted to ensure the people David killed weren't Jewish.

    If David was the future king, why would he even think of killing fellow Israelites?
    Any ideas?

    Rob
     
  14. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    I don't know, I don't guess he would have. I guess if he asked for 100 ears or 100 big toes then David could have brought him body parts from anyone. By asking for foreskins then David had to kill male, non Jews. If the Jews did not practice circumcision David could have just gone through a battlefield after the fighting and collected foreskins from both sides dead. In early America they would have taken scalps, in Vietnam they would have taken ears. Its pretty gruesome no matter how you do it.
     
  15. John Toppass

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    All this "weirdness" and more. Remember in 1 Samuel 8 Jehovah told Samuel how having a king would oppress Israel and give them grief. But, they still chose to have a King (like the rest of the nations in the known world). This is the typical result when we try to adjust and keep up with the world around us.

    The stories and escapades of the kings of Israel just shows us that know matter how we mess things up, God can and will use it for His will; for His will cannot nor will it ever be denied.

    HALELUJAH!!! Our Lord God, Jehovah is true to his word no matter if we are not.
     

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