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Questions about "virgin" in context

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by franklinmonroe, Oct 20, 2008.

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  1. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    I do NOT doubt that John has studied this carefully and he is probably correct about the linguistic reasons it should be "virgin". I believe Matthew that Isaiah 7:14 is a messianic prophecy. But I have some questions if "virgin" is the rendering in Isaiah 7 --

    1) If the prophet Isaiah meant "virgin" (as we typically define the word) what was the method or mechanism of this immaculate conception? Does this mean that Jesus was actually the second pregnancy caused by the Holy Spirit? We know that Isaiah was a true prophet, and therefore his prophecy must have been fulfilled at the time of Ahaz (..."And it shall come to pass in that day"... veres 18, 21, 23 etc.).

    2) If the prophet Isaiah meant "virgin" (as we typically define the word) why wasn't there a significant reaction recorded from King Ahaz and the others that heard the prophecy ?

    3) If the prophet Isaiah meant "virgin" (as we typically define the word) wouldn't the child lack a human sinful nature, and thus why would next two verses of the prophecy anticipate "... that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good,..."?
     
    #1 franklinmonroe, Oct 20, 2008
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Personally I've never completely bought the idea of a double fulfillment for Is. 7:14. Any thoughts I've seen about the contemporary fulfillment were just speculation. There is no historical evidence. The only person recorded in history to be called Immanuel is Jesus Christ. And only Christ knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good (v. 16).

    Concerning the Hebrew almah, as Herbert Leupold points out in Exposition of Isaiah (pp. 155-157), the word occurs only six times in the OT, and in none of those usages can it be proven that the word means anything but virgin.
     
    #2 John of Japan, Oct 21, 2008
  3. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    #3 Deacon, Oct 22, 2008
  4. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    #4 franklinmonroe, Oct 22, 2008
  5. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Despite your confession of uncertainty, a translation of "virgin" here precludes even the possibility of a contemporary fulfillment; does it not? Therefore, choosing the rendering "virgin" is necessarily also the selection of one (and only one) interpretation of the passage.
    Unfortunately, the present lack of historical evidence is not proof. On the other hand, theological reasoning could be the key to unlocking the proper interpretation; please elaborate on how Christ is the only one that knows how to "refuse evil and choose the good".
     
    #5 franklinmonroe, Oct 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2008
  6. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    OP, the "Immaculate Conception" is a catholic doctrine pertaining to the conception of Mary in a sinless state in her mother's womb, hence her being able to miraculously hold the God-child in her sinless womb.

    The "Virgin Birth" is the doctrine of Jesus Christ miraculous conception and birth to Mary by the Holy Spirit while she was still a virgin, before she had any other children tio Joseph.

    The former is heretical and puts Mary on the same level as God, by making her sinless. The latter is Biblical.

    Just letting you know, even though most people probably know what you meant.

    God bless
    Luke
     
    #6 Lukasaurus, Oct 22, 2008
  7. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    I've always found it to be leaning to close to apostacy to question the Virgin Birth.:godisgood:
     
    #7 Salamander, Oct 22, 2008
  8. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    I wonder if His being God has anything to do with it!
     
    #8 Salamander, Oct 22, 2008
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Several years ago I asked a rabbi about "almah", & he said it's an outstanding young woman. If she had never been married, her virginity is a gimme. But this outstanding young woman can still be an almah if she were a newlywed.

    Mary was obviously an almah when Jesus was conceived. She remained a parthenos(Greek, "virgin") until after Jesus was born. Her marriage to Joseph occurred after Jesus was conceived, but before he was born. Thus, Joseph became His earthly stepfather under both Jewish & Roman law.

    Remember, Isaiah 7:14 doesn't mention a man at all besides Jesus. It says, "an almah shall conceive". And again, according to this rabbi, a never-married almah would be a virgin. That is part of her "almahship".

    So, I see no prob with "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14.
     
    #9 robycop3, Oct 22, 2008
  10. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    That's a first.
     
    #10 Lukasaurus, Oct 22, 2008
  11. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Thanks, Luke. I'm sorry if I confused any one. I think "immaculate" (all lowercase) can fairly be applied to the only messianic pregnancy via the Holy Spirit in history (since it was pure, flawless, and without blemish). Why should the Catholics get to keep all the good words? :laugh:
     
    #11 franklinmonroe, Oct 22, 2008
  12. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Why do you do that? No one has questioned the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth.

    The point I was trying to bring out was: that by employing the English word "virgin" here displays a distinct choice in the interpretation of the passage, which raises a number of questions about other portions of the prophecy.
     
    #12 franklinmonroe, Oct 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2008
  13. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Good. Now, let's just put away 'almah and all the grammar and syntax arguments; but let's hear your answers to the OP questions.
     
    #13 franklinmonroe, Oct 22, 2008
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