QUESTIONS FOR CALVINISTS TO PONDER.

Generally speaking the New Testament refers to three groups of people. The Remnant of Israel, the Hardened Jew, and the Gentile. Keeping that in mind I want to define each of these groups and have the Calvinists on this board answer a few questions, if they can:

(1) The Remnant were Jews from God’s elect nation. In Salvation, these were, “holy firstfruits” (Rom. 11:16) “set apart from birth;” the first fruits of grace; the first to be called by Christ; the first and only to be appointed as Apostles through a divine calling. These were the unique messengers who were authorized by the Sovereign decree of God to usher in the gospel of Grace through faith in Christ.

Questions for Calvinists to consider: What sets Paul and the other apostle apart from you, me and every other believer? Are verses that speak of his being “set apart from birth” and “effectually compelled” to preach common to all believers? If so, why does Paul refer to these unique attributes as authoritative signs of apostleship? Do we undermine apostolic authority by claiming that God has sovereignly elected and called us in the same manner as he did Paul, the divinely inspired apostle? Is proof that God sovereignly elects and calls divinely inspired messengers also proof that he elects and calls their audiences in that same manner?

(2) The Hardened Jew: The rest of the Jews were temporarily hardened (Rom. 11:25). In Salvation, these are hardened for the purpose of grafting in the Gentiles and in turn arousing “envy” within them so that they too might believe (Rom. 11:11-14). If they believe in the message they can be grafted back in, if not they suffer the under the wrath of God just as the unbelieving Gentiles. So, salvation comes to these through faith in Christ IF God has “enabled” them to be grafted back in. (Rom. 11:23) The word “enabled” in John 6:65 then referrers to God’s removing His judicial hardening and not God’s overcoming their inborn nature of total depravity as Calvinists interpret it.

Questions for Calvinists to consider: How does the biblical teaching of hardening fit with Total Depravity? Why would God hardened men who are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the things of God already? Why does the Jesus speak of hiding the gospel in parables if indeed those he is hiding it from were born Total Depraved rendering them unable to believe it anyway?

(3) The Gentiles were not hardened, as Calvinists seem to assert in their teachings of Total Depravity. “They will listen!” (Acts 28:28) They are the “foolish” ones that the scripture speaks of that will “accept what Israel rejects.” Gentile’s belief and acceptance of the gospel through faith provokes envy in the hearts of the Jews. “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.” (Deut. 32:21/Rom.10:19). During this time Paul and the other apostles were trying to convince the church that Gentiles were chosen of God and that this mystery was apart of God's plan from the beginning of time. Thus, Paul thanks God continually for their being chosen. (1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13)

Questions for Calvinists to consider: What would envy or jealousy have to do with bringing someone to saving grace if indeed man’s will is not a factor? Jealousy is a motivator of man’s will. Why would it be needed if men our brought to salvation by an effectual calling? Isn't it possible that when Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, speaks of his audiences being chosen that it's in reference to the major debate of that day which dealt with God's choice to ingraft the Gentile nation by allowing them entrance into His covenant, a place traditionally thought to be reserved only for Jews?

I know this is a lot to go through, but it was these issues that pulled me away from the Calvinistic doctrine. I'm interested to know how you might deal with them. Maybe you can find answers that I was unable to find. I am willing to learn.

Thank you!

 

What faith? The apostles saw Christ and Paul had the road to damascus experience. They didn't have to believe in the unseen in the way we do. Now they had to trust that what Christ said was true, but their appointing was done in person, not through a secondary source as ours is. In fact, you will see throughout scripture that Apostolic authority was based upon their learning directly from the original source. Thomas, saw him and believed, but blessed are they who don't see him and still believe. That's faith.

So. No, I don't beleive God merely look through the annuals of time and saw Paul's faithfulness, Paul's desire was to persecute Christians. God interviened and changed all that on the road to damascus.

I agree that God intervenes in man's rejection of him. Proof that man doesn't seek God is not proof that man cannot respond to God when He calls. I believe he calls all men through the gospel.

But you believe that God only gives faith to certain elect people; therefore, rendering God's words senseless when he rebukes men for their lack of it. Shouldn't He rebuke himself for not giving certain men enough faith? In your system, there is no one to blame for their not responding except for God because He is the only one with the ability to grant it to them.

I believe it is because some have allowed their hearts to grow hard by continually refusing to acknowledge God's revelation of Himself. Nature, man's conscience, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit all testify to who God is and some refuse to listen allowing their hearts to grow harder and harder with each rejection of the truth.

You believe its because God chose to impute a sinfulness to such a degree to all men due to the Fall that everyone was born in a hardened state and therefore must be irrestiably called out of it by God leaving him ultimately responsible for mankinds rebellion and lack of faith and leaving man with a perfect excuse at judgement.

God shows mercy to all men (Romans 11:32) He does this by inviting them all to a covenant relationship with him through faith, which they are all capable of from birth. Its only when they continually refuse to acknowledge His clearly seen and understood revelations that they will grow hardened. They are NOT born, "given over" or "hardened" they BECOME that way after time.

I don't object so much because it seems unfair, though we all must admit it does, I object because its not supported by SCRIPTURE. That must be our standard.

 

No, I am using scripture. Everyone who He bound over to disobedience, which is everyone who is born, is also shown mercy. Is it not merciful for God to allow all men entrance into his covenant through grace? He didn't have to do that, but the scripture says he did.

In the context of Romans 9 this is speaking about Jews who think it unfair for God to allow Gentiles entrance into his covenant. Think about it. Jews thought of Gentiles as being unclean and unworthy of God's mercy. But He can have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, even dirty Gentiles.

Do you remember the story about the workers in the vineyard? The ones who were there all day complained because the new guys got paid the same. Do you know what that is about? Jews who think it unfair for God to show mercy on Gentiles. That is the big issue of that day. Its the "mystery" Paul continually refers to and it is what Paul is addressing in Romans 9.

I agree. But that can't be in your system.

Romans 9 is not comparing saved (elect) and unsaved (lost) it is comparing those being shown mercy (Gentiles) and those being hardened (Jews.) Read on into chapter 10 and 11 and you will see that those hardened may be provoked to jealousy and saved, they can't be the non-elect of Calvinism. Hardening does NOT equate to being unchosen by God for salvation otherwise Paul would not have spoke about the possilbiy of their being saved in chapter 11.

These passages CANNOT support your interpretation.

 

Yes, you are correct. But the question is "Why are they non-believers and what keeps them from BECOMING believers?"

They are non-believers because of their own choices and desires, we all agree on that point.

But why can't some of them become believers? You think it is because they were born Totally depraved and God has chosen them, right?

But the bible says in numerous places:

Why couldn't they believe? Because they were being hardened.

Does'nt that just mean they are non-elect?

NO!

How do you know?

Because they ones are are being hardened could still be saved:

You can see that those who can't believe at that particular time in human history, may believe later, so what you see as God not choosing them for salvation is really just God temporarily hardening them while he accomplishes a purpose through them. You think they are unable because of Total Depravity, but in reality they are unable because of hardening. There is a BIG difference.

Total Depravity is from birth. You become hardened after hearing and understand then rebelling.

Total Depravity affects all men. Judicial hardening was applied to the Jews alone for a temporary period of time, the Gentiles will listen (Acts 28:28)

Total Depravity never ends unless effectually called, hardening ends when one is "confronted by the gospel, ""provoked by jealousy." and "leaves their unbelief." (nothing is ever said in regard to an effectual call being utilized)

 

Yes, you are correct. And do you deny that these two groups could be further divided into the 3 subcatagories I presented? You really didn't deal with the issues.

The real issue is, "Why are they non-believers and what keeps them from BECOMING believers?"

They are non-believers because of their own choices and desires, we all agree on that point.

But why can't some of them become believers? You think it is because they were born Totally depraved and God has chosen them, right?

But the bible says in numerous places:

Why couldn't they believe? Because they were being hardened.

Does'nt that just mean they are non-elect?

NO!

How do you know?

Because they ones are are being hardened could still be saved:

You can see that those who can't believe at that particular time in human history, may believe later, so what you see as God not choosing them for salvation is really just God temporarily hardening them while he accomplishes a purpose through them. You think they are unable because of Total Depravity, but in reality they are unable because of hardening. There is a BIG difference.

Total Depravity is from birth. You become hardened after hearing and understand then rebelling.

Total Depravity affects all men. Judicial hardening was applied to the Jews alone for a temporary period of time, the Gentiles will listen (Acts 28:28)

Total Depravity never ends unless effectually called, hardening ends when one is "confronted by the gospel, ""provoked by jealousy." and "leaves their unbelief." (nothing is ever said in regard to an effectual call being utilized)

 

Me2, I'm sorry I don't understand your question. Which of the three groups that I mentioned can you not see and why? Gentiles include all non-Jews.

 

You're leaving out the remnant of Israel refered to in Romans 10 and 11. And I'm not sure what you mean by your statement. Gentiles include all non-Jews.

 

Sorry about the numerous posts above guys. The system was just giving me a blank page and when I would resign on the message wasn't there. Weird???

I reposted few times and I guess they finally all came on. Sorry.

 

Problem. The bible never speaks of Gentiles being judicially hardened as were the Jews. Read Acts 28:21-28 and you will see that there is something very unique about the hardening of the Jews. I posted on another thread the difference between self-hardening and Judicial hardening, if you need me to repost that here I can.

You are correct. Which is why this passage CANNOT support the Calvinistic rendering. Why? Hardened Jews may be saved and therefore cannot by a reference to "non-elect" reprobates as Calvinists interpret it. That is the point I'm trying to make.

Well, there is another reason. The Gentiles were not being actively hardened by God as were the Jews (Acts 28:28) "The Gentiles will listen."

Who are the "firstborn"? Israelites who were the first to hope in Christ. Namely the chosen apostles.

There is much debate about what Paul means when he states that all Israel will be saved. Some scholars, even Calvinistic ones, think this literally means all Jewish people will be pardoned in the end times. Others think "Israel" means "elect ones" in that God has determined who "Israel" would be sovereignly before time began, which is what I think you're proposing. And then there are other that say "Israel" is believers. You can become true Israel by believing and anyone can do that. I think the text support the latter most clearly because it calls for Jews to leave their unbelief so that they can be grafted BACK into the vine. And it speaks of Jews being provoked to jealousy so that they too might be saved. Where would jealousy fit into the Calvinistic system, when that is a provoker of man's will? It also goes on to speak of Gentiles being ingrafted but only IF they continue in the faith and that if they become prideful they too could be "cut off." That in no way seems to be an indication that God has predetermined who these people would be.

BTW, there are only two nations. Jews and non-Jews. Non-Jews are called "Gentiles." All other nations are lumped in with the term "Gentiles." It seemed like from some of your comments that you might think there are more.