Questions for those who believe that man's will is involved in salvation.

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." (Romans 10:17)

Everyone has faith, but not faith (Greek pistis indicating one time belief as in salvation) in God. It is the Spirit of God that draws men to Himself, but the individual must respond the that drawing.

 

Brother Ian,

It is the Spirit of God that draws men to Himself, but the individual must respond the that drawing.

Yes, the ones that God draws to Himself MUST respond. Why? Because His ultimate power and grace is irresistable! His sheep will know Him!

And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind."

"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

"And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

"Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep .

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice ; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

I would agree that those capable of response must respond!

Because if Jesus says "they will hear my voice" I am quite certain they will!

There is NO other way for those God has intended to save! The sheep MUST be saved!

Do you think the goats must respond also? I do!

God made people, meaning the Spirit goes where it wills. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was even born! He simply had no choice in the matter. He was blessed.

The Word of God is like the fire of a furnace. All people respond (react) to it in one of two ways.

All people are by first nature hardened to the Word of God.

Some people are hard like candles. When they are made to see their condition in light of God's unmovable standards, they melt before a Majestic, Holy, Perfect, and Sovereign God!

They get softer and softer the more they hear and know about Him!

They simply melt before Him knowing that there is nothing of them worthy at all. Not one singfle solitary thing!

They give up on themselves and come running to Christ Jesus! They fall at His feet and cry out "have mercy on me a wretched sinner!"

It is there they find it!

Other people are also by nature hard. But they are of a different substance. They are of clay.

The more they are subjected to the Word of God the harder they get. Because the Word of God is still as a fire in a furnace.

These people do not melt...they knash their teeth at God and how He has revealed His ways.

They say things like "God is not fair if He does not save everybody".

When I have spoken to people about the sovereign election of people to salvation, I have had people say to me "your God is a monster" "I will never worship a God like that".

And they may be perfectly correct....maybe they never will!

But maybe these are not the sheep....maybe these are made of clay. The goats.

You can be certain that everytime you speak the truth in the Word of God it works on people! Some get harder, and some get softer.

The Word of God will do just as God has willed it to do.

And ALL must respond. All WILL respond.

The difference is in the way they respond!

All glory to God!

Regards, KJB

 

KJB,

If I implied that every will respond, that is not what I meant. In order to be saved you must respond. If you don't respond, that is exercising your free will, but you won't spend eternity in heaven.

Not responding is a response, but it won't lead to salvation.

 

1. Yes the Holyl Spirit supernaturally DRAWS the sinner to Christ. He is a part of the equation in God "supernaturally" placing discord/enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.

2. NO - no one would COME to salvation if left to themselves.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Very true. And as Romans 10 points out - nature itself is the VOICE that brings the word and the HEARING to ALL mankind.

Hence we see the statement in Rev 3 about the lost where Christ stands at the door -- on the OUTSIDE -- knocking.

In that model "UNION WITH CHRIST" only takes place AFTER the door is opened by the one on the INSIDE!

Even Calvinists have to admit that "UNION" is the first point in regeneration!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Romans 12 says "to each one is given a measure of faith" but NOT ALL choose to exercise that faith in accepting Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Brother Ian,

You posted;

May I ask you a question? It seems that you are saying no person can be saved unless a person makes some sort of response. Yes or no?

If the answer is an absolute yes, I would like to know what is the response.

I would like to also know if you claim every person ever born has free-will?

Thanks, KJB

 

May I ask you a question? It seems that you are saying no person can be saved unless a person makes some sort of response. Yes or no?

If the answer is an absolute yes, I would like to know what is the response.

I would like to also know if you claim every person ever born has free-will?

Thanks, KJB </font>[/QUOTE]A person must make a decision to turn from their sin and turn to God. That involves an individual, conscious decision. If one does not make that decision, then they will die in their sin. In other words, one does not have to decide NOT to follow Christ, making no decision continues that person on the path of eternity in hell because we are born in sin thanks to Adam (Romans 5:12).

I think everyone that has been born has a free will, but I'm not sure I follow your question. Certainly a baby or someone that does not have the mental capacity cannot decide to follow Jesus.

What are you getting at?

 

Dear Bob,

In Romans 12 Paul is addressing believers who have already exercised that faith in accepting Christ. Since Arminians do not change scripture to suit their beliefs, I am sure that you know this already, but I was afraid that others might misunderstand.

Your friend,

whatever

 

THere is no case where Paul was able to stop the unsaved in the church from reading.

There is no case where a letter was spiritually filtered so that only true saints could read it.

The faith given "to each one" is part of the supernatural work of God -- first identified in Gen 3 when God placed discord between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.

Humanity has been given a supernatural discord and a supernatural faith in its depraved condition.

Hence: " I stand at the door and knock IF ANYONE HEARS AND OPENS the door I WILL come in " UNITY comes after the one ALONE on the inside CHOOSES to exercise faith and OPEN the door!

But of course - you knew that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is no indication that what God gave to the saved He also gave to the unsaved, or that what He says to the saved also applies to the unsaved. When you read assumptions into texts then you make a mess of the meaning of those texts.

 

Brother Ian,

That is part of what I was getting at. Babies do not respond. So responding must not be an absolute requirement of salvation if it is true that babies can be saved.

I rest in the entire fact that people are saved only by the grace of God. It seems that the only thing that must take place in an absolute sense for salvation is "God saves".

The believing does not cause salvation. Salvation causes believing, of course for those capable.

If all those born have a free-will......babies sure do not have much of any will at all but seem rather bound and disabled in all faculties and senses. Dependent maybe a better term for the will of those newly born.

If people have free-will....why is it that Scripture says we do not?

Scripture speaks of the natural mind as never seeking God, unable to understand, at enmity, a slave of sin, and blinded by the god of this evil world.

If the will of men are already free.....what is it that Jesus sets men free from?

Thanks and God bless. KJB

 

Hey King James Bond,

Still preaching the truth? Long time no see. Thanks for your love of the truth and defence of the same.

I know you will be patient with those who don't agree with the doctrines of grace. The Lord is teaching each of us things in which we are deficient.

Keep up the good work.

When "the day of His power" was made manifest in my life I was "made willing" to believe the truth unto salvation.

Just the same way... when it came time to learn the truth of what had really occurred at the point of conversion, he opened my eyes to that also.

God will do it at some time for all His children. Remeber what Spurgeon said.."as they get older they will settle for the 'finer meats'" ...referring of course to the Doctrines of Grace.

I had a friendly debate yesterday with a local Baxterian (Independent Baptist Preacher) in which he stated that Eph 2:8 was referring to "Grace" as being the "gift of God" and not the "faith" portion of that verse.

Of course Grace is also a great gift that comes from God. But the verse is clearly referring to Faith, and it proves it by contrasting to works in the next verse. The point the ignorant Pastor was making was that Faith as it pertains to salvation comes from the man! I pointed out once again that not only am I saved by the unwavering faith of Christ but it is by His faith, and only His faith, That I can live every day.
Galations 2:20.

So just a word of encouragement as you debate with the Semi-pelagialists here...they don't need to buy into the truth for the truth to have set them free from their sin, God as we are aware is not bound by man's carnal mind (whats that scripture again? it's too late). However let us pray that the truth will be revealed to them in order to set them free from living in the "Bondage of the Will" after their conversion.

as so masterfully laid out by Martin Luther.

Perhaps a word study as to the "common salvation" in Jude would do us some good

Or even the mentioning of "Will Worship" in Collossians.

What is it in our humanity that makes us grab and hold onto our control of salvation to such an extent? God give us courage to challenge the humanistic ideas that permeate our flesh so that we may bring it under subjection to His Mind, and His Will which He purposed in Himself before the world began.

Praise God he doing His work in spite of you and I. Hallelujah!

 

...from the other forum....

I have noticed while bowing my head in prayer meetings in Arminian and Semi-pelagial surroundings and while listening to their prayers for their "lost" relatives they have etc. they consistently pray for God to "work in their heart" or "bring things into their life to break their will" and other interesting quotes could be made.

As a proponent of "Free Grace" I expect that "Free Willers" will be against God imposing His Will on one of His creation or overpowering a persons will.

Why would someone who is against God being coersive then turn around and ask him to be that way?
Just a thought and perhaps private point of musing. Maybe in the end we're all Calvinists... (sorry if that was out of line)

Does anyone have a comment on this?

 

Greetings

King James Bond's picture of the baby is flawed. While it is true babies can't respond with faith in Jesus for salvation, the biblical pictures of the new birth are constantly reflecting faith as the instrument which activates God's imputation.

Faith in Jesus is the equivalent of the new birth from above. This is the birthing process. The response of the baby comes AFTER BIRTH. This is the aspect of sanctification. This shows confusion of justification with sanctification - just what I see in Arminians.

Thus, you guys make it hard for me to correct Arminian heretics - who don't know what justification means - when you can't even keep your own analogies straight. They rightly keep pointing back to this kind of foolishness as their defense.

So please - tighten up your proofs! Say what you mean and mean what you say. Do not indolently let your personal bias get in the way of sound Bible expositions such that the Arminian heretics can use it against you in other facets of apologetics.

Free Grace theologian
(Neither Calvinist nor Arminian; but really close to Calvinism)
Lloyd

 

Remnant, I agree. According to some (most?) Arminians, God gives everyone the same chance to accept Christ. If that is the case, then why would we ever ask God to do something in someone's life to give them an advantage to be saved? It's one of those inconsistencies that the Arminian has to live with to remain biblical on other issues.

 

Interesting ...

So how am I supposed to pray as a Calvinist?

 

Well basically you thank God for the things He provides, and be content with the things he does not. You would say something to the effect of...

Father if it is in your will please (insert request here), and if it is not alllow my mind to be at ease with your decision, for you know what I need and when I need it, and if I do not have it then I do not need it. You do all things for our good, so I know that if what I ask is not granted then you have other plans, and I can rest assured that they will be good because your word and promise are true.

 

Hello Remnant,

First of all I have to say you are much too kind. Second of all;

Lord please give me patience when it is needed. Please give me the power to be blunt when needed. I seem to lack so much.

He will do for all of His children, and all in His time.

Human pride, self righteousness, self exaltation, self glorification, self confidence, and the sinful nature of the unregenerate. These are things that are of a controlling self nature. All things of "self".....probably the root word of "self" fish.

I must become less and less and deny myself. It is a must, and it also is His work.

God bless! KJB

 

ascund,

I was not speaking in an analogy. I was speaking about real human babies.

God bless! KJB