Questions for those who believe that man's will is involved in salvation.

Hi Andy

I also am a Free Grace Theologian. You raised an excellent question. Let me try my response.

First, God must initiate the reconciliation.

Second, there is a difference between the Calvinist, Free Grace, and Arminian positions on depravity.

Calvinists insist that depravity is so final that we are as dead people spiritually. Hence we are unable to respond to God's initiatives until AFTER God has zapped the elected reprobate with regenerating life. (To this you and I both disagree).

Arminians think just the opposite. We are well able to comply with God's demands for perfection. We will be rewarded for our obedience (so they focus on water baptism to begin and lots of good works thereafter) and judged for our disobedience. (We both disagree with this also).

Free Grace theologians hold that depravity has handicapped us. However, we are well able to respond to God's initiatives through a free will decision of faith in Jesus Christ.

Third, we respect to prayer there are also three views that correlate to one’s view on depravity.

Calvinists pray rather weakly for everything is predetermined. Arminians pray rather fervently for everything depends on their self-righteousness. Hence they invoke God to break wills, bring this or that, etc. in order that their justification must rest securely on their sanctification. Free Grace theologians pray somewhat like Arminians except that they know their position IN CHRIST and ultimate destiny is certain and that their prayers only affect sanctification and rewards.

Arminians (and Calvinists to a lesser degree) cannot keep destiny and rewards straight. So it is not the prayers per se, it is the hoped for result of the prayers that is different.

CONCLUSION
Arminians pray that their sanctification might be rewarded with final justification.
Free Grace Theologians pray that their sanctification might be rewarded. Justification is an historic EVENT.
Calvinists pray because they've been told to pray. They know that their prayers won't change anything already determined.

Lloyd

 

God has given us His Word to help us pray effectively.

He has also given us His Spirit. In Romans 8 NLT we have;

"The Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us."

"The Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will."

I would consider myself weak, and God strong. I would venture to go out on a limb here and conclude that at times I pray for things NOT in accord with the will of God.

Prayer is effective even if it does not bring forth what is asked for.

Prayer is simply a feeble soul coming to Mighty God knowing that God is in control of everything. It is feeble and weak man placing himself in a humble position knowing what is asked for may not be given if not in line with the will of his Master.

Out of all of those groups praying.....which ones in which group look at God as being their tool to call upon and do their own will as a consistant and constant standard?

Paul said;

three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.

the Lord said to me, “ My grace is sufficient for me, for my power is made perfect in weakness”.

And notice there is not even a qualifiyng "free" in front of grace!

The word grace does not need to be qualified.

The word itself means "unmerited favor". That means when God gives favor, it is not because we merit it in any way at all. Not even with our prayer.

His grace is sufficient especially because we are weak.

Salvation is also by His grace, and His grace alone through faith.

God bless, KJB

 

4His_glory,

You are exactly correct! They claim it is ONLY by the will of man that men are saved, and yet they pray to God to work in the hearts of people with His will.

Baffles me!

And we all know the wills of men are free from any influence don't we? LOL

God bless! KJB

 

I think you are putting words in their mouths. I don't think Arminians believe that people are saved "ONLY by the will of man" and that wills are "free from any influence." I know you were trying to be humorous.

To me, this is how I would describe the sovereignty of God and the will of man. Picture the will of man as a fish tank. We are the fish swimming around in a small fish tank. The rest of the universe is the sovereignty of God. God created the fish tank for His glory so that man would love Him. Now, sometimes God may place things in this fish tank that causes us to react a certain way. Sometimes He may actually pick us up and put us somewhere else. If not, we are still swimming in a small, limited tank of of our ("free"?) will that God has created and He sometimes lets us swim around "on our own" while He still has complete control and can and does whenever He wants to, interferes to different degrees. I don't like it when some preachers say, "God always respects and never interferes with the free will of man" because sometimes He indisputably does interfere. However, I would not dismiss the entire existence of something that could be called a "free will." Free not meaning free from God's control. This is kind of the way I can best analogize the so-called "free will" of man.
The Arminian might say that the tank is an ocean and that God never places things in it, or touches the fish.
The Calvinist might say that God always has His hands in the tank and is always literally moving things around Himself and that anything less than that means God is not "sovereign".

 

Actually Glory we pray knowing that God, through His word, and the work of the Holy Spirit, does convict. We both agree man will not and could not come to God on his own. God has already done the work so man can. He has sent the savior, the HS to convict, the Word to tell all and the bible says itself that even nature cries out His glory. For sure we believe the same it is all of God. Its just the re-defining of terms that you twist this into some kind of man's salvation.
Why would a calvinist even pray for a sinner to be saved...its a done deal is it not? this is the confusing part to me.

 

KJB....you know I don't believe that. I believe salvation came to man by God's will, not man's. God offered a sacrifice for the sins of the world. You wouldn't be so baffled if uyou would actually listen and try to hear what a person who is not a calvinist is actually saying and disperse with the strawman. I am not saying that I disagree with your calvinist doctrine, just trying to make a pt that you are not dealing honestly with those who disagree with you.

 

Hey 4His_glory

This characterization has a great deal of truth even if it might a bit over-extended. I seek only here to add that it does not apply to the Free Grace Position.

We are unable to effect our own salvation. God must be the initiator. However, I'm not Calvinistic in that I hold that we can respond to God's initiatives.

While we cannot earn or merit the gift of eternal
life, we can accept it. The FG position maintains both God's sovereignty and human free will.

Lloyd

 

I do not see in Scripture that people can by their own nature respond to God in salvation. I am convinced that God makes demands of people and people by nature are unable to meet such demands in response. For example: "Do not lie." Here I find the law is good but just because the law is given and demanded it does not imply that people are able to keep it. It is the same with repent. Although God most certainly may call all people to repent, it does not imply that people are capable to repent unless God enables them. It is like demanding a dead man to go jogging. It is the same as God making a demand that we are to be perfect. He has every right to make such a demand. It does not construe that we are capable of being perfect.

and the darkness did not comprehend it.....and the world did not know Him......His own did not receive Him.......But as many as received Him......who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God......unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God......That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit......The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." ......so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life......A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.

Jesus makes it clear that those saved have been given to Him;

For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.....I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world...... I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours......My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message.

Chapter 3:3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

Chapter 3:4 These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

Chapter 3:5 Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.

Would anyone like to see PROOF TEXTS for those?

They can be found here;

http://www.opc.org/documents/wcf03.html

It appears that the entire process of salvation rests in the hands of God from start to finish. It was all ordained before the world was even created. The ones that are left to act in their sin have no option of being saved and were ordained to be passed over and left in their own blindness as children of wrath. I see that we were once children of wrath.

While there may be a synergism.....it is not a needed item in salvation......for if you study the WCF and the proof texts it provides you will find that even elect babies are saved by God.

I see the entire salvation process as a Sovereign act of God, even the granting of faith.

Saved by grace through faith......and none of it from ourselves.

Regards, KJB

 

Timtoolman, Aresman,


LBC says;

Chapter 10:1 Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

The confession properly holds to the premise that the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient for every sin of every man of the entire world.

It is only efficient or effective towards those that God has predestined to be saved from eternity past.

The salvation of sinful people is not dependent upon the outward calling of sinful people moved along by the motive or power of sinful people. If it was, who would be saved?

It is rather an outward calling to sinful men, by sinful men, as sinful men are moved by a Holy God.

It is with an effectual inward calling applied by God Himself to those that have been selected before the world and people were ever made.

The inward calling of God is not ineffective upon inner man.

This means there are no accidents. He will save all those He has intended to save and they are of a specific and absolute number.

In short, people are called (outwardly) and are welcome to come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins.

The fact remains that all people by their first birth or first nature are not willing to come. Their will is not to come.

Their will does not change UNLESS God changes it.

It is called new birth....or as Jesus was telling a teacher in John 3...."You must be born again".

All people refuse to come unless they are made willing by God.

When people become WILLING it is because the Spirit has given them new birth.

So it is not mans will or free-will as having any saving effect.

It is God's will that is effective in making men come freely.

The sound Biblical conclusion is that God does not make all people willing.

He leaves certain people held in what is called bondage because He has not freed them.

People in the first nature are nothing more than walking dead. Un-responsive unless they are made alive in Christ.

I suggest you read the LBC above and research on the proof texts provided. I sure hope this helps you both.

Regards, KJB

 

KJB, I can't refute all of what you are saying but you still are grasping what I am and others are saying or else I am not articulating it very well.
I agree man cannot come to God unless God (if HE WILLS it)makes the way possiable for man. I do not contradict that it is not by the will of man. I maintian that it was God's will to provide an equal payment for man's sin. He sent the son, He gave us His word, He sent the Holy Spirit. That was his plan, that is what is best. I or any man did not will or tell God He had to do it. And God was not obligated to do it either. It was of HIS will. I understand the pt here we are just looking at if from different angles I think. Whatever man does it adds nothing to the work of salvation which is already completed.Done, finished on the cross. If I set at the table of a farmer who lays out a spread for me from his hard work, veggies, meat, fruit etc and I sit down. The fact that sitting down is an action and a verb does not make it a work that says I can claim any glory in the food laid out before me. I see it the same way with accepting what God has already done, finished, laid out. The glory always goes to the giver not the reciever.

I agree with much of what you said though,


posted September 16, 2005 07:47 AM
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Timtoolman, Aresman,


LBC says;

_The confession properly holds to the premise that the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient for every sin of every man of the entire world.

_It is only efficient or effective towards those that God has predestined to be saved from eternity past.

_The salvation of sinful people is not dependent upon the outward calling of sinful people moved along by the motive or power of sinful people. If it was, who would be saved?

_It is rather an outward calling to sinful men, by sinful men, as sinful men are moved by a Holy God.

_It is with an effectual inward calling applied by God Himself to those that have been selected before the world and people were ever made.

_The inward calling of God is not ineffective upon inner man.

_This means there are no accidents. He will save all those He has intended to save and they are of a specific and absolute number.

_In short, ALL people are called and are welcome to come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins.

_The fact remains that all people by their first birth or first nature are not willing to come. Their will is not to come. It does not change UNLESS God changes it.

_All people refuse to come unless they are made willing by God.

_So it is not mans will or free-will as having any saving effect.

_It is God's will that is effective in making men come freely.

_The salvation of sinful people is not dependent upon the outward calling of sinful people moved along by the motive or power of sinful people.

_I see the entire salvation process as a Sovereign act of God, even the granting of faith.


All of these qoutes of yours above, I agree with and believe to be scriptually based. I don't think anything I have ever said on here contradicts any of those.

Tim

 

Hey KJB

A. Gift
How then would you describe the gift of Eph 2:8-9?

Can faith be a gift if the dead person is "zapped" with it in the process of regeneration?

In a common sense understanding, a gift is something that takes an active decision of agreement to be received. In this aspect, the gift is received passively. Gifts can also be rejected.


B. Universal.
The Bible speaks of a universal offer of atonement. For a common sense Bible reader, the Bible is true and the first part is human error. The gospel is freely offered to all.

The Bible teaches that Christ died for “sinners” (I Tim. 1:15 ; Rom 5:6-8). The word “sinner” nowhere means “church” or “the elect,” but simply all of lost mankind.

Additionally, there are three grand soteriological themes that indicate the universality of the atonement: First, “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world” (1 John 2:2). John could have said, “for the world” or “for those who would believe,” but he said “the whole world.” A normal reading will lead us to the plain understanding of the all-inclusiveness of Christ’s death.

Second, “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them” (2 Cor 5:19 ). Can it legitimately be asserted that “the world” means less than all humanity? Paul could have easily said “the elect” or “those who believe,” but the inspired text simply says “the world.”

Third, it was the OT sacrificial system that required blood alone for atonement. “When I see the blood I will pass over you” (Exod 12:13 ). “Blood makes atonement for the soul” (Lev 17:11 ). So, Jesus would say, “For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matt 26:28). In contrast to His blood being shed for many, 1 Tim 2:6 says that Christ “gave Himself a ransom for all” and the immediate context (1 Tim 2:1-6) qualifies the term “all.” It refers not to all the elect, but to “all men” (2:1) and “all who are in authority” (2:2), and indicates that God desires “all men to be saved” (2:4).

Lloyd

 

ascund,

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

The "you" is in reference to ones that were dead but now alive.

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

All people were at one time by nature children of wrath and dead.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

How and why were we made alive? But because of His great love for us He made us alive with Christ even while we were dead and un-responsive on our own....how were we saved? By grace!

It is perfectly clear that the grace of God is not just an offer of salvation. It says clearly and without apology.... it is by grace you have been saved.

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Who raised us up? And for what reason?

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ah ha..here we have it again...it does not say by grace you are offered to be saved if you will to be.

It says clearly and in a precise manner....

it is by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED as in a completed work of God.

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

How can that be explained anymore than it is explained already?

For the wages of sin is death;

We have all earned death.

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I would say the GIFT is not an offer of or for salvation........it is salvation. Why do I say that? Because it says so.

The gift of God IS eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hope that helps, KJB

 

Loyd,

As for your universal atonement theory you are wrong.

(Acts 20:28-29 NLT) “And now beware! Be sure that you feed and shepherd God's flock-- His church, purchased with His blood --over whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders. I know full well that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock.”

Just so you know.....I am aware that He purchased His body of believers with His blood.

His flock, His sheep, His elect, His saints, His body.

Thanks and regards, KJB

 

YEP YEP !

 

Is the Grace of God resistable? Can the Holy Spirit convict sinners only to a point where he can still say NO NO NO I don't want it and "choose" not to be saved even AFTER convicted by the Holy Spirit or does the Holy Spirit convict whom he wills and the sinner always says YES YSE YES I want it because it is so clear (salvation) that he won't say No (essentially it is irresistable)?

The will of man seems to be the real defining factor between the two camps. On one side the Cals claim that if the HS convicts sinners only so far to where he has a "choice" the Bible says that in EVERY case a sinner, if convicted only so far, will ALWAYS say NO NO NO. The free-willys say that a man CAN make a choice to accept or reject, as though God brings man right to the cliff's edge of salvation to either "lump off by faith" to be saved, or to turn around and say NOPE, I won't jump.

Do I have it right basically?

 

IFB Mole,

You have it quite clear. Are people saved by the will of God or by the will of men?

If God does not save but only offers salvation it must be that the deciding factor is beheld in man.

If such is the case, no matter how you flavor it, man is his own savior.

God forbid I would have faith in such a miserable confession.

I say God saves.

For He shall save His people from their sins.

His will be done.

Regards, KJB

 

Hey KJB

Acts 20:28-29 NLT is a nice quote. However, you err by pitting one set of God's verses against another part.

Correct hermeneutics is to find harmony. This harmony only comes by a universal atonement by which only few accept. Those few who believe in Jesus are the elect not because God has arbitrarily picked one and not another. We (believers) are elect we have been immersed into Jesus Christ - Who was elected as the centerpiece of God's plan of redemption from before the foundation of the world.

You make an error similar to the Arminian heretics who deny Christ at every turn. Calvinists don't deny Christ but they can adopt the same errant "pit-the-Bible-against-the-Bible" hermeneutic.

The verse you picked is a subset of election.
Lloyd

 

ascund,

You are correct it is best to use more clear passages to help with other passages.

He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace.....

As in Romans 8.....God tells us that;

those whom He has predestined unto eternal life, He will call; and having called them, He will justify them; and having justified them, He will glorify them.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

I would suppose if we wanted a better picture of if Jesus purchased ALL people head to head we could look more towards the end of things.

Rev 5 proves that Jesus did not purchase ALL men, but rather ALL types of men.

You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain,and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

I would have to say ALL does not mean every single solitary person. Unless the end is going to somehow change.

Regards, KJB