Questions for those who believe that man's will is involved in salvation.

Hey KJB

Your quote:

Context shows that this event takes place at the end of history. This reference looks back on the historic unfolding of God's plan of redemption to our fallen race.

Even here, in the future, the message indicates a universal offer to people of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation.

I'm perplexed. Your so-called proof of specific election verifies a universal offer of salvation.

Lloyd

 

Timtoolman,

It makes sense now it seems more clear.

I wish to remind you of this verse.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Now what part is of ourselves?

Faith? I have faith but was it manufactured in me by me?

Grace? Was I saved by my grace?

The verse is indicating that "you have been saved".

It is not indicating "you have been offered salvation by grace through faith.

By grace (from God) you have been saved (by God) through faith (which has been given by God), and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

It is ALL about God. Not %99 or %99.9.

All about God and not about ourselves.

No man would have accepted anything unless God had first made him willing to accept it.

Now it is my hope that Scripture makes sense to you.

Regards, KJB

 

ascund,

I have never said that the offer was not universal. The offer is to ALL men.

What is the offer? To turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins.

A person must first be convicted by God that they are a sinner. Those that are good enough and well enough need no Savior in their minds and hearts.

The offer is to all. The problem is that the natural mind is hostile to God.

Hostile as in an active hate and rejection of God and godly things.

It takes nothing less than a miracle to save such a person. We were all such persons!

By nature we were children of wrath deserving of hell and the wrath of God.

What made us turn to Him for forgiveness?

He did! It is a miracle of God by God for God.

We were blind and now we see!

He gives sight to the blind. He does not give sight to all the blind.

That is His perogitive and not mine or yours.

Nevertheless it is true.

Regards, KJB

 

Greetings

So when Jesus said "believe in ME" (John 6:29), He was stating something not possible?

So all the universal "whosoever" exhortations can not be genuinely fulfilled?

The offers are not legetimate. It is like walking into a cemetary and preaching the gospel of life. Which dead person will respond? No one!

The Calvinistic view of depravity as being total absolute deadness is false. We depraved humans enroute to an eternity in hell have the ability to hear and respond.

God is not the aloof tyrant Who capriciously sends people to hell. Neither is God is the author of sin.

While the Calvinist will loudly agree that God is not the author of sin, the natural ramifications of determinism makes God the author of sin. If we cannot choose to do anything but that which God has decreed, then we are puppets following the divine script set forth by God. The Calvinistic God has scripted everyone's sin. One cannot say "Yes" and "No" at the same time. Either God determines sin or He does not.

Even in depravity, humans can think - I think?!

Even in depravity, I choose to believe that humans can chooose - I think!?!

Brinsmead says:

Salvation is wholly due to God's initiative in Jesus Christ. He sought, chose and found us. We did not seek, choose and find Him. Our salvation is grounded in His prior decision to save humanity in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Election is corporate - not individual.
Whosoever wills may enter therein.
Lloyd

 

Since we had no part in our own creation or God's gift to mankind...nothing.

Faith is a human quality given to all men . This does not mean it was self manufactured by man as you imply. Even the lost have the ability to have faith, and exercise this on a daily basis, even though it is not in God's Son.

No. You are really reaching. Strawman.

Correct. By what? Faith in Christ.

This specifice verse mentions nothing of being offered anything. Strawman.

Close. By grace (from God) you have been saved (by God) through faith (which by God all men are born with the ability to have), and that not of yourselves (we can do nothing on our own to merit salvation); it is the gift of God (totally from God....accepting the gift in no way means earning it.)

 

Excellent response webdog!

Calvinists typically erect worthless strawmen. When they demolish the strawmen they wrongly feel vindicated for their error.

If they would ever understand the biblical view, they would have nothing to demolish.

Hence, they ridiculously ask:

This is a wild strawman that should not appear at the scholarly level.

Lloyd

 

Hello Lloyd.

No He is calling only to His sheep because only His sheep will hear and respond. They will believe.

There is no universal call as there was no universal atonement. You ignored it before here it is again:

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

Why call one no atonement was given for? Limited atonement is proved and no universal call given whatever you mean by that.

It is a self delusion to believe fath is a work? John 6:29 says faith, believing, is a work.
If anyboby accepts the offer He will be saved I read nowhere in scripture but from your head I see it flourish. Believe in me and be saved He said. Believe, and that is a work credited to me by Jesus. Where's any offer? Before faith or after? It's after faith arrives. Believe in me and the be saved is taken as a saved one.

It is by grace man and no amount self. Dead as a Dodo mate until the Life comes into us and quickens the spirit and rebirth never came as a result of the child.

1PE 2:8 and,

"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."

They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


john.

 

Hey Johnp

Your quote is nice but scripture, earlier in the same book, shows that the election is by foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2a).

We must stop there either. The foreknowing election comes through the sanctification of the Spirit (1 Pet 1:2b). This we know is the result of justifying faith in Jesus upon which God's Spirit immerses one IN CHRIST!

God Elected Jesus to be the center of His plan of redemption (Eph 1:1-14). Note how many times "IN CHRIST" is used in this so-called Calvinistic proof. You pick and choose only what you want from the text and abuse it by God-denigrating theology and then thrust it upon every other pertinent biblical text.

In Rom 8:29, God clearly shows that foreknowledge and predestinated are for the purpose of conformity to Jesus, that HE might be the firstborn among many brethren. You blissfully dismiss the last phrase. Jesus is FIRST.

All who wish may freely enter therein.
CONTEXT RULES!
Lloyd

 

I don't think that "foreknowlege" is the correct word.

We forget that we physical beings are limited to only one specific point on the timeline at one time. God has no such limits. In the same way that God exists everywhere in the universe at the same time, God likewise exists everywhere in the timeline at the same time. So, to God, there is no "before", "during" or "after". Time has no meaning to God's existense, as it does to us. Further, time plays no part in God's decisionmaking, as it does to us.

Hypercalvinists typically reject the foreknowlege arguement because, in a linear existence, it somehow makes salvation conditional. But since God's existence is not linear, the hypercalvinist arguement fails.

 

Hello Johnv.

Oh boy? And where did you dig this little gem up from man? The time lord Johnv would have Christ on the cross forever.

Welcome to the Twilight Zone everyone.

john.

 

God is Sovereign man. If He saves you or if He doesn't that is entirely in His will. You are only saying what He directs you to anyway it don't phase me.

John.

 

So is it your claim that God is linear? Doesn't that limit God's existence? Certainly, you would agree that God's existence is not limited by the laws of time. Even Jesus noted that "before Adam was, I am".

I never said anything about the incarnation of Christ. It's obvious that Christ as a human being would be limited to a linear existence as surely as he is limited to bleeding, getting hungry, and all the other conditions (save the sin nature) that humans are limited to.

Your reputation for exhibiting a lack of any respect remains intact.

 

Hello Johnv.

What are the laws of time o time lord? The Lord is not limited but by His Nature He is what He is.

Absolutely and you cannot prove otherwise and you are the one in science fantasy. We know time is linear and that is all we know.

Did He? Then He was and not is ain't He? Past tense man.

If time travel is possible then Jesus is still on the cross in those time frames that He was on the cross for isn't He? Once for all man not once forever.

Thank you.

john.

 

If God is linear, then God is limited by time. Scripture is clear that God is not limited.

Jesus said "Before Adam was, I am", he did nto say "before Adam was, I was".

I never said anything about time travel.

 

Hello Johnv.

God cannot be limited but by His nature. Time is not created but part of God's being. If not prove it with scripture not opinion.

In the same way that God exists everywhere in the universe at the same time, God likewise exists everywhere in the timeline at the same time. So, to God, there is no "before", "during" or "after".

With Christ forever on the cross. If the timeline is existing it is existing and the day I was born is still happening and then which me would suffer the Hell if my destination was to be there? The whole thing is complete and utter rubbish made up by science fantacists for a joke. Not one scripture. Come on prove what you say with scripture.

Your point your welcome.

john.

 

I dont think there's any arguement there. THink of it this way: Space is likewise a part of God's being, and scripture inferrs that God is omnipresent (existing everywhere at once). In the same manner, if time is part of God's being, then God is omnitemporal (existing at all points in time at once).

I made no mention of you, Hell, or Christ's suffering.

It can be implied in the same menner as God's omnipresence and omnipotence. But I've never said it's a scriptural absolute established fact. However, it is in line with what scripture teaches about God.

 

Hello Johnv.

In the beginning God created the Heavens... Space is not part of God's being being created it is. You confuse the creator with His creation? There's a name for that isn't there? Some other 'ist' or 'ism'.

Scripture infers no such thing but tells us plainly: Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? Ps 139:7 onwards.

But He tells us plainly about Himself. He has an interest in this so He tells us what is and what is not. What is not is not in accord with scripture and the stuff you just gave is invention at best and deception at worse and it won't wash except to those who are led astray by the imagination. It does not speak as scripture and so therefore has no light.

Scripture not opinion Johnv.

john.

 

ascund, Timtoolman,

Even in depravity, humans can think - I think?

Very good. Yes people think!

About depravity and death........

I guess you were not dead before you were brought to life?

You must be of those "not depraved enough" type. Kinda like those that are saved but have never been lost? Maybe just a fence sitter waiting to make the right choice were you?

Scripture says otherwise of ALL people.

Here is some more of that stuff you call strawman. Oh and by the way, it is from the Word of God.

Once you were dead, doomed forever because of your many sins. You used to live just like the rest of the world, full of sin, obeying Satan, the mighty prince of the power of the air.

He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.

All of us used to live that way, following the passions and desires of our evil nature. We were born with an evil nature, and we were under God's anger just like everyone else.

But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so very much, that even while we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead.

(It is only by God's special favor that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ, and we are seated with him in the heavenly realms--all because we are one with Christ Jesus. And so God can always point to us as examples of the incredible wealth of his favor and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us through Christ Jesus.

God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so that we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

ascund, Timtoolman, I will tell you both right now that I will not listen to all the stuff you spill out.....you will not convince me of any other gospel.

I want to let you know in all honesty that my will is not free but rather bound to Scripture.

I am convicted that God saves period.

Your vain imagination and feel good self-righteousness preaching is void of any power.

God needs no help from sinful evil men to save sinful evil men.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

When people ask you "what is the power of God for salvation"? You would probably answer "believing" is the power to salvation.

You are very mistaken and misleading people with your claims.

The gospel IS the power of God unto salvation.

Believing is the response of being saved.

Believing what you may ask? Don't demons believe? Think about it!

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

God plants His crop and He will harvest it.

Amen!

You both really need to rethink and submit to God's Word.

Regards, KJB

 

I fail to see how someone preaching "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" is preaching another gospel.

Also, notice the order. It doesn't say, "Be saved in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt believe." It says, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

Note. I'm not arguing as a Calvinist or an Arminian (actually I am like ascund--Free Grace), just the simple argument that the point is that belief is the channel for salvation as opposed to works.

I think the point of this verse is that one is saved through belief and not through works; therefore, it doesn't really matter one's physical heritage, because herein lies the common denominator. And we should not be ashamed to preach this simple and impartial Gospel, because the power of God saves all who believe.

 

AresMan,

Baptist confessions of faith proclaim that infants may or may not be saved by God according to His will.

They provide proof text to back up what they say.

The topic is about mans will involved in salvation.

While men most certainly have wills and they most certainly may be involved in salvation, mans will is not an important factor in salvation.

As a matter of fact, even mental retards can be saved by God.

I am not suggesting that faith in Jesus Christ is not good.

I claim that it is not some sort of half and half will of God and will of man that saves man.

It is ALL of God.

Scripture is very CLEAR on the nature of mans will and it is hardly free from anything at all except good.

The only thing needed from a dead man to give a dead man life is that he is first dead to begin with. It is simple.

Here is that Scripture again;

Once you were dead, doomed forever because of your many sins. You used to live just like the rest of the world, full of sin, obeying Satan, the mighty prince of the power of the air.

Dead! Hardly sounds like our will is at work for our good here.

He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.

All of us used to live that way, following the passions and desires of our evil nature. We were born with an evil nature, and we were under God's anger just like everyone else.

Being born witn an evil nature just so happens to be the way it is no matter if we like it or not. We are by nature hostile to God. God is life and we are death.

But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so very much, that even while we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead.

So how were we made alive? By my will or His mercy?

(It is only by God's special favor that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ, and we are seated with him in the heavenly realms--all because we are one with Christ Jesus. And so God can always point to us as examples of the incredible wealth of his favor and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us through Christ Jesus.

God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so that we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Sure sounds like a lot of special favor there to me.

There will be nothing to boast about in His Kingdom except for ALL He has done.

Regards, KJB