Quick Question

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by chuck2336, Jul 14, 2008.

  1. chuck2336

    chuck2336
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    I heard a statement this weekend I have not heard before.

    I heard someone say, "If a person dies with out ever hearing about Christ. God knows this persons heart and knows weather or not they would have believed HAD they heard and would judge accordingly.”

    I took it that this person was saying that this person could in fact still go to heaven because had they heard they would have believed.

    I have never heard it put like this before. Does this ring true with anyone, if so where do we find support for this in scripture?
     
  2. donnA

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    A lot of people believe this, even here on the BB, but I've never seen it in scripture.
     
  3. Crabtownboy

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    We say that God is a God of love, justice and mercy. If this is true then it seems to me that a person who dies and has never heard of Jesus that God will in some way provide that soul with a choice after death. And God being a God of justice and mercy God will arrange it in some way that is just as fair to them as it was to us. I do not have a scripture to support this and I do not know if any such idea is addressed in the Bible.

    If I am wrong and that person is lost then I, you, all Christians share part of the responsibility as we did not work hard enough that everyone has heard enough to make an intelligent choice.
     
  4. chuck2336

    chuck2336
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    I don’t know that you are wrong, but I do believe that we as Christians will share in the responsibility of not working hard enough to get the gospel out.
     
  5. abcgrad94

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    Nature shows us there is a God.

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

    The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shewth his handiwork. Psalm 19:1
     
  6. SaggyWoman

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    If a tree falls in the woods, and I didn't see it fall or hear it fall, it still has fallen.
     
  7. JustChristian

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    I don't believe that anyone will have a chance to make a decision after death. I think the books are closed when we die. I certainly believe that this situation underscores the need for Christians to spread the gospel.
     
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    The answer to the OP question is found in Romans 2:14-15. Those who have never heard the gospel have the law written on their hearts. That is, the law of right and wrong. Each person has his own moral code. That law, written on his heart, migtht be called a conscience, which Paul says either excuses him or condemns him. Paul says such people "are a law unto themselves."

    That is the standard by which he will be judged--his own moral code. His problem is that he can't even live up to his own sense of right and wrong (just like we who have heard the gospel), thus he will recognize that his condemnation by the Judge is just and right. He will have no excuse.

    Some on the BB insist that everyone has heard the gospel, and some have rejected it, thus condemned. Yet there is ample evidence that there are those who have not heard, thus can't be condemned on that basis.

    The proposition stated in the OP is wrong. If it is right, then for goodness sake, let's quit sending missioaries, even stop preaching the gospel anywhere, lets somebody hear it and reject it.
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    Rom 9:13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved: but Esau I have hated.
    Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid!
    Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. And I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy.
    Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith to Pharao: To this purpose have I raised thee, that I may shew my power in thee and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
    Rom 9:18 Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will. And whom he will, he hardeneth.
    Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say therefore to me: Why doth he then find fault? For who resisteth his will?
    Rom 9:20 O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?
    Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction,
    Rom 9:23 That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory?
     
  10. JDale

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    Good post Brother Tom. Amen.

    JDale
     
  11. JDale

    JDale
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    This is a view called "remedial redemption." I know of no denomination that officially adopts such a view as part of their theology, but there are individuals here and there who affirm this view.

    The major problem is that there is no Biblical support for such a belief. In fact, as pointed out above, Paul in Romans 2 pretty much contradicts its very premise.

    Also as stated above, if this view is accurate, why in the world would we send out missionaries? Seems to me one standing before the throne of God after death and facing a very real and apparent hell would be a sure fire way of convincing a person to believe!

    Furthermore, Ezekiel's lesson about warning those who are in sin has application for today. If we do not warn them, then their blood IS on OUR hands (Ezekiel 3, 18). It's got little to do with Romans 9, as our Calvinist friends might indicate. The responsibility was given to US to be witnesses (Acts 1:8). The results are in the perview if God.


    Blessings,

    JDale
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    the problem with this premise is that it anchors that person's eternal salvation on that person's heart, and pictures God as having Christ redeem that soul because of circumstances beyond that person's control. so in other words, the effectiveness of Christ's atonement and redemptive work at the cross has as co-factors a fallen sinner's corrupt heart and has God granting him mitigation on account of circumstances, instead of granting redemption and forgiveness undeservedly through Christ who is His express image.
    it also makes a lie of the Scripture that says "all have sinned and come short of God's glory" because it assumes that God saw this certain goodness in the person's heart - the goodness of accepting Christ had he been given the chance.
     
  13. J.D.

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    Think about this: there is no such thing as "if" in the mind of God. If you see the word "if" attributed to God in the Bible, then He is teaching, not learning. "If" God has chosen to save someone, then He surely has the authority and power to provide the bibical Gospel to that person. "If" God turns the heart of kings, then he can open the way for preachers to go into a nation and preach the Gospel to every creature. "If" God does not turn the heart of a king to open the doors of a nation, then those people will deservedly die in their sins, having rebelled against the light of nature, against a law written in their hearts, knowing the eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. The light of nature is sufficient to reveal man's moral failure, but it is not sufficient to lift him out of his failure. Only the Gospel can do that. So no one is condemned unjustly, and no one is saved deservedly, so that "no flesh should glory in His presence".
     
  14. TomMann

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    I firmly believe that if we are faithful to share the gospel with those who we interact with on a daily basis and if those we interact with would do the same and on and on..... we'd cover the world faster than with all the missionaries we could send to the utter most parts of the world.....

    The problem is not that we don't share with third world countries.... it is that we often don't share with those in our daily lives.......
     
  15. ServingHim

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    I think we must remeber that a person doesn't go to hell because they don't recieve Jesus. A person goes to hell because they are a SINNER! They have broken God's perfect standard. Jesus came to pay our fine for us breaking God's law. If someone has never heard of Jesus, they won't go to hell because they never accepted Christ, they will go to hell because they have transgressed God's law. "It's appointed unto to man, once to die..." Everyone will be judged according to God's standard.
     
  16. stilllearning

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    Hi Hi donnA


    You said........
    Well here is one......
    By the authority of God’s Word, and the fact of His Righteousness, no one will ever leave this life(after the age of accountability), without having an opportunity to trust Christ as their Savior.
    --------------------------------------------------
    The way this works, is by using the light, that God gives you.

    For instance, if a man, in the middle of the nowhere, looks up into the sky at night, and sees God’s creation(natural revelation), he has two choices.

    (1)Turn his back on God, and go back to his sinful life;
    or
    (2)Use the light that God has given him, and look for more.

    God’s response to the man that looks for more light, will be to give him more light, and eventually bring him to someone, that will tell him about Jesus.

    God’s response to the man, that turns his back on the natural revelation, that God has gives him, would be to allow him to go deeper into the world’s Spiritual darkness.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Therefore, most people in this situation, will die without hearing the name of Jesus, because the road to destruction, is wide, and many will go that way.

    But the way of life, is narrow, therefore few will really give God’s revelation(in any form), any serious thought.
     
  17. mparkerfd20

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    Do these verses give us the answer? Are those that don't hear the gospel fitted for destruction already? And if so, who are we to question God about this?

    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction,
    Rom 9:23 That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory?
     
  18. webdog

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    No, because the context of chapters 9 - 11 is God's dealing with Israel.
     
  19. webdog

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    I agree with much of what Tom stated. I would add that those who are reprobate are so because they have "believed not". To "believe not", the opportunity to believe is clearly there by definition of choice.
     
  20. StefanM

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    That's not necessarily true. It is possible not to believe in something you have not heard. Not believing need not imply active rejection. It simply indicates that you do not hold to a particular point of belief, either by conscious rejection or ignorance.
     

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