Rapture as fictitious as Sunday-sacredness

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 18, 2006.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    I believe in, and pray and hope for Jesus 'second' Coming. So has the Church of all ages. It will be the end of all things now and the beginning of all things new, then. There shall be one resurrection of all - of the damned unto thei eternal damnation; of the saved unto eternal life on THIS NEW EARTH.
    From where all this talk about a rapture? I am well-read in all of 'old' and 'orthodox' Protestantism, and have NEVER come across the novelty of a 'rapture' - it's ridiculous!
     
  2. genesis12

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    Hi, Gerhard. Is it as hot in South Africa as it is in the USA? We're boiling over!! I'll assemble all the rapture scriptures and send them to you later -- I've got other things going on at the moment!
     
  3. TaterTot

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    Gebhard, I am with ya. The concept f Christ's return is very clear, but the "rapture" stuff...well, I agree with ya.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Hello, Gerhard.
    Well, they all base it primarily on 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 which says:

    Further that there are two phases to the "Rapture", the "silent" phase or "secret" phase, where the above Scriptures are applicable to the believers in that they and they only will hear the trump of God, after which a judgment of believers' works will be done in heaven, and the Lord will pass out at least five crowns to the saved, which they will simply lay down at the Lord's feet, and a great wedding feast shall take place, all these happening in the space of 3 and 1/2 years, while on earth, simultaneously, the antiChrist will start to rise and towards the end of 3 and 1/2 years he will traitorously attack Israel along with the unsaved Gentile nations, and
    seat himself as the "abomination of desolation" in Jerusalem, proclaiming himself as God.
    Then the Creator will start to pour out His judgments, culminating in the city of Jerusalem being surrounded by its enemies and nearly brought to extinction, but the Lord, at just about this time, the end of the second half of a 7 years' tribulation, will come back with His saints, and defeat the antiChrist, and tie up Satan and throw him into the bottomless pit, and the Lord will physically reign in Jerusalem for one thousand years, the sinless Creator, ruling and exacting worship from the unsaved who survived the seven years' tribulation, and those who came back with the Lord will be ruling over cities and towns at the behest of the Lord.
    And the Lord will fulfill His promises to national Israel, promises of glory and blessings, and after a thousand years, Satan will be loosed for a season, and again go and deceive the nations, who, of course, being unsaved and unregenerate will rise up in rebellion, and the Lord Jesus will then slay them with the sword of His mouth, and the last judgment begins.

    Good stuff, what do you think ?
    If the "left behind" guys would just prevent Hollywood from inserting Hollywood for a while, and just go by the storyline, maybe they'll produce really good entertainment, and scare the bejesus out of the unbelievers, and make them accept Christ now before it's too late, don't you think ?:flower:
     
  5. J. Jump

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    That may be true for some, but not all. You can see this Truth in the passage you mentioned, then you can also see it in Revelation 1 and 4 and you can also see it in the OT in at least two different places. Once in the story of Isaac and Rebekah and then also in the pattern of the death and shed blood then the removal of Enoch before Noah and the flood.

    So to say that the "rapture" is all wrapped up in one passage is not entirely accurate.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    Thanks for the info.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Graves opening
    Trumpets blowing
    The Loud shout of God!

    That rapture event of 1Thess 4 (i.e the FIRST resurrection as described in Rev 20:4) sure is noisy!!

    Praise God "Every EYE shall SEE Him"!!

    As for the Rev 20 FIRST resurrection not really being FIRST and the 1000 years of Rev 20 not really being a 1000 years after which the REST of the dead "Come to life" -- well you have to ignore the text to ignore the details.
     
  8. El_Guero

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    I think I am more troubled by your defining the of celebration of Our Lord's Resurrection as NOT sacred.

    Are you a JW? Or are you just a 7th Day advocate?
     
  9. mojoala

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    Where does the Old Testament teach 3 comings of Christ? My Old Testament only teaches 2.
     
  10. mojoala

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    1 Thess. 4:16-17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many Christians call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible, although is derived from the Latin vulgate of this verse – “rapiemur”)

    John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The question Christianism has raised is “when will the rapture occur?” They have developed three theories – (1) post-tribulation; (2) pre-tribulation; and, (3) mid-tribulation. We address these theories later on. But first, here is some more background.

    Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. Christians generally call this period of a thousand years the “millennium.” The “millennium” is a harbinger of the end of the world, and the theories of when the “rapture” will occur center around this period of time. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.

    There are three ways that Christians interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when they think the rapture will occur).

    (1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.

    (2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.
    (3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with the early church teachings.
    2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Christians believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Christians often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Christians use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:

    (1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.

    (2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.
    (3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.
    2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!
     
  11. Tom Bryant

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    You're right Mojoala. A truth that God gave us to motivate and comfort us has been changed into an argument to win. I'm absolutely committed to Biblical doctrine, but so are most of the guys with whom I disagree concerning this issue.
     
  12. NoCompramise

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    The Rapture or blessed hope is something to look forward to. In the OT God gave us types, Noah, Lot, Enoch etc. I can't see how such a subject be disbelived!! The scriptures are there, the evidence of His return is there. The question remains, How many of us really want Him to return?
     
    #12 NoCompramise, Jul 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2006
  13. J. Jump

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    That is the truth!
     
  14. mojoala

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    The rapture as a 3rd secretive coming is a false doctrine created by Satan to give one a false sense of security. It's an escapist Theology. It's a cowards doctrine believing that christians should be spared the great tribulation. Why should God spare us from that? He has never spared Christians from persecution in the past, why would he do it in the future. Putting Christians thru the Great Tribulation will help weed out the true believers(the ones that walk the talk) from the fake believers(those that don't walk the talk).

    Second argument:

    There will be those that get saved during the Great Tribulation. If they can go thru it then why can't those that were christians before the Great Tribulation started?

    Thrid argument: I have met people that stopped being christians when the Rapture did not happen when our False Prophets such as Hal Lindsey said it was going to happen and did not. The Devil must smile when a person loses his faith because the Rapture did not happen.

    Fourth Argument: For the sake of arguing. Let's say that the Great Tribulation started today. And there was not evidence of a Rapture. How many people would lose their faith and belief in Jesus.

    Chew on that for a while.

    God bless and go live the Gospel
     
  15. Eric B

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    So premillennialism is supposed to be disproved based on that one verse, but unless salvation is based purely on feeding and giving shelter to the poor, thatr must not be the final judgment. Some works-advocating groups like the Catholics might say salvation is based on that, but then this interpretation had become a ready answer in Christian proselytizing controversies for nonbelievers who point out that people of other religions often are more giving.
    On the other hand, the beg9inning of the milennium is at the same time as the first resurrection, and the resurrections are clearly separated by the thousand years. Now, you don't believe the resurrection has occured, do you? Preterists would say yes (It was a spiritual resurrection of those then and all of us afterward) but your view seems to still be partly futurist.
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Not one of the Scriptures implied in the least indicate a 'rapture'. It's all fanciful. Surely exegesis has some simple and basic principles - which must be discarded beforehand to conclude a 'rapture'.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Yes! Nevertheless, despite I feel the sinner I am most, just when I say this, I still will say it and cannot help to confess: I do long for Jesus' coming soon.
    My father did, all his life; and he always hoped - and firmly believed in his own lifetime! I believe his hope shall not fail him despite he has passed away and Jesus had not come yet.
     
  18. J. Jump

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    You don't have to believe it if you don't want to, but just because you don't see it doesn't make it untrue.

    The NT folks had no clue that practically the entire OT spoke in same way of Jesus, but that didn't mean it wasn't true. They just couldn't see it until He revealed it to them.

    And some of them it was never revealed to them. And some still can't see Jesus in the OT today. But that doesn't mean He isn't there. You can see Him throughout if you have eyes to see and hears to hear.
     
  19. J. Jump

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    If one would understand God's plan as God has laid it out in the opening two chapters of Genesis one could get a better handle on when these things shall come to pass.

    Not a pinpoint accurate grasp, but a general understanding. There's more to add, but I'll just leave it at that.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Fine name for me - I in fact am a 7th Day advocate; but a Calvinist-7th Day advocate! They don't like me claiming to be a Calvinist while I try to be a Biblical '7th Day advocate'.

    Now where does the fictitiousness of Sunday sacredness start? Precisely where the name indicates - heathondom that entered the early Christian Faith. We read the first record of it in Justin Martyr's gnostic arguments of compromise with the world and the powers of the world. What did Justin do? He tampered with the Scriptures - Matthew 28:1 specifically. He changed every factor of grammar and syntax around so that he could endorse Sunday with the events of the Sabbath Day on which Jesus rose from the dead. Modern translations - without any exception as far as I know - literally translate Justin - and disregard Matthew - when they tell us WHEN and ON WHICH DAY Jesus rose from the dead.

    Now the rapturists determine a day for which cannot be determined a day; and ridicule the Day that God determined especially to be "the Lord's Day", namely the day on which "God finished ALL his works" - through and in and for the sake of Jesus Christ, when "He entered into His own rest as God".

    I love the Sabbath's sacredness for the Lord Jesus' sake; the principle of his resurrection for the holiness of the Day is 100% because it's 100% Biblical. The only trouble is the Church attaches that holiness to the wrong and false day of heathen and idolotrous worship - by lies and disrespect for the Scriptures.
     

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