Rapture: hocus-pocus

It think 1 Thess 4:15,16 more likely is meant to assure that the dead won't be "left out" when the glorious return occurs. I personally don't think it is meant to refer to an event where all Christians will suddenly vanish. I think that'll put me in the minority here though!

 

Rather you are in a minority or not Doctor, I cannot say. But I would like to talk about your feeling that all Christians will not suddenly vanish. For that I will refer to 1Th. 4 15&16's companion verses in 1Cor. 15: 51&52:
51.) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-
52.)In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet, For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Who's affected: We. In this context it can only mean the saved, His body, His Bride. (So shall we ever be with the Lord in the 1Thes. passage. The unredeemed will not be with Him forever.)
How many affected: All (vs. 51)
How sudden: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...

 

Dr. Bob Griffin,

Please show us, prove how do you know rapture will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the second coming in the Bible?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Brother DeafPosttrib, you are going to get
me in trouble. There is a rule one can only
post stuff once, i've posted this a dozen
times, but you do keep asking

-----------------------

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

Blessed be Hashem!!

 

Ed,

No verse anywhere in the Bible saying he shall reign for 7 years. Rev. 13:5 tells us, Antiochrist shall reign for only 42 months, not 84 months or 7 years.

Apostle Paul tells us, that we MUST go through MUCH of tribulation - Acts 14:22, and we are APPOINTED for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. And we shall be persecution and trouble by persecutors - 2 Thess 1:4-6.

Caught up and gathering together shall not come till we face tribulations first.

Show me WHERE a verse saying it?

On Daniel 9:26-27.....

Dan. 9:26 tells us, AFTER 69th week, Messiah was cut off(crucified), the PEOPLE of the prince shall come and destroy the city and the sacrifice- Christ allows people(Romans) came and destroyed Jerusalem and the building of temple in 70 A.D.

Dan. 9:27 tells us, Christ already make a new covenant with many people through Calvary - Mar 14:24. We are not under the old covenant anymore, now we are under the new covenant because of calvary. Remeber the context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus on ONE person - Messiah is Jesus Christ, the contet does not focus on two persons - Messiah and "antichrist". None anywhere in the context of Dan. 9:24-27 discusses on two persons. It focus only ONE person is Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Prince. Dan. 9:24-27 speaks of the promise to Israel and us that Messiah shall make a new covenant with us - salvation through Calvary now already fulfilled 2000 years ago by Calvary.

The context of Dan. 9:24-27 do not mentioned about tribulation nothing at all. It dicusses on Jerusalem, temple and the covenant. The main subject of Dan. 9:24-27 talks about Messiah's new covenant upon his people through Calvary.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not saying 'pretrib' rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 do not separate from the discussion on the coming of Christ of 1 Thess 4:13-18, because there was NO chapter and verse during Paul's time. He wrote them into epistle. The context of 1 Thess 4:13-1 Thess 5:10 discuss on the same subject about the coming of Christ, that Paul warns us, His coming shall be like as thief in the night. We must be ready and watch for his coming.

Paul tells us, that our gathering together shall NOT come till we shall see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist. Clearly, 2 Thess 2:1-3 do not teaching on pretrib gathering together, because verse 3 tells us, that our gathering together shall NOT come till we shall see apostasy(fall away) first and the revealed of Antichrist first.

Yet you do not prove me ONE verse anywhere in the Bible saying rapture will be 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE second coming.

Rapture does not separate from the coming. Rapture always go with coming, because of what the Bible says so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Yo-yos go down and then up. Just like the souls of dead saints in the pretrib rapture - coming down with Jesus (1 Thess 4:14), then going back up with everyone.

It is not a blessed hope to go through the Great Tribulation. To simply be with Jesus is the blessed hope, regardless of timing.

Being present for wrath and being the object of wrath are two entirely different things. Even the pretrib view has saints present on Earth during the "wrath".

Not at all. Our hope is in Christ, not timing.

 

Peace and love to you in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

deafpostrib quote:

Caught up and gathering together shall not come till we face tribulations first.

--------------------------------------------------

Deaftrib,

We as christians face tribulation and persecution for our faith and testimony in Christ Jesus in our lives and throughout our lives - some killed/martyred, and others not. It is not a requirement that one be martyred, but a statement of fact or reality that most will endure troubles and rejections, and all sorts of tribulations for our faith and for our sharing the gospel. It is not limited to the tribulation period. The tribulation period has everything to do with the 70th week of Daniel, that the nation of Israel has yet to fulfill, as God has ordained upon them, and prophecy be fulfilled. The Book of Revelation is the detailed acount of this last week of Daniel, which a week is equal to 7 years. We see, as Christ Jesus, the Lamb of God opens the first seal of the book, this is when the tribulation begins, and the first seal is a judgement, and that first judgement is the man upon the white horse, with a crown and a bow. This is in reference to anti-christ, for he comes conquering to conquer, but peacefully.

I am currently attending Bible Study on the Book of Revelation, and I highly recommend it to you, if you ever hear of one in your church or another church of like doctrine. It has been such a blessing to me, and I think it would be for you also. There are also many books written about this. Even your own personal study, referencing scripture with scripture will be beneficial to you, and give you great blessing. The rapture, or catching away of the saints, is a very comforting truth (our blessed hope - Amen! Ed) and a special blessing to all those who are the Lord's children. Just as God had saved Noah, and his family from his wrath of the flood, into the ark, so shall God save us from his wrath in the end, into the ark, which is Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. He is our ark. And God also promised we are saved from his wrath (natural and spiritual).

May the Lord richly bless you deaftrib, and all of you here.

love in Jesus Christ our Faithful Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

I will reply back to you soon.

IFB have lot of problems intepreting on Eschatology abd pretribulationism.

Myself was pretrib before whilist I am IFB.

I will discuss on verses with you later.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

The rapture is not about Christ coming in secret or openly. The rapture is about the church leaving. Christ does the calling and we leave.

 

But Noah went through the flood. He felt the waves and the movement of the ark. He experienced the entire flood, yet he was protected and did not perish.

The Bible has great promises for those that overcome and endure to the end. Now if you promise you children a piece of pie after finishing supper, do you give it to them before they finish eating?

 

Michelle,

Many believe Daniel 70th week is 7 year of tribulation period.

But, the context of Dan. 9:24-27 do not saying anything about tribulation. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 talk about Messiah's new covenant with us through calvary, that was fulfilled 2000 years ago.

There is no gap time between 69th and 70th week of Dan. 9:26 and 27.

Dan. 9:26 tells us, Messiah was cut off AFTER 69th week, that means he was crucified during 70th week after his 3 1/2 years of ministry in Israel.

Christ fulfilled the prophecy of Dan. 9:24-27 that He made a new covenant with us - Mark 14:24. We do not wait for 70th week to begin. Daniel 70th week already fulfilled at Calvary.

Many believe there will be seven year of tribulation period because of Dan. 9:26-27 and the book of Revelation saying so.

But, Dan. 9:24-27 do not saying anything about the seven year of tribulation period.

Even in the book of Revelation does not saying about the seven year of Tribulation period.

Many pretribbers believe the book of Revelation was written in chronological order all the way from seven seals to seven vials in 7 year of tribulation period. I was one of them before.

Later, I realized that the book of Revelation was written in parallels and retelling the events.

John's visions were like as 'replay' on T.V. tape.

My early view of Revelation's chronological was:


-------seven year of tribulation period-------


---first 3 1/2---

Seals-1,2,3,4,5,6,7

middle

Trumpets-1,2,3,4,5,6,7

---last 3 1/2---

Vials-1,2,3,4,5,6,7

My second view, while I was prewrathist:


-------seven year of tribulaiton period------

first of 3 1/2 years

Seals: -1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

last of 3 1/2 years

Trumpets- 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

Vials- 1,2,3,4,5,6,7


Now, my third view as posttrib:


------three years of tribulation period----

Seals: -1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Trumpets:- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Vials: -1 2 3 4 5 6 7


I believe the first of five seals are occuring right now since early church to great tribulation. Notice there are parallel compare with Matthew 24:4-13 and Rev. 6:2-11. I believe Matthew 24:4-14 is already now happening since early church to today, these signs are continue happening through great tribulation till Christ comes.

Matt. 24:29 and Rev. 6:12 at the sixth seal will be occur as the sign of the sky shaking that would be at end of the great tribulation to announcement of the coming of Christ.

Sixth seal is the future event.

Right now, we are within the first of five seals with the signs of Matt 24:4-14.

The coming of Christ shall be announcment at the LAST trumpet(1 Cor. 15:52) of Rev. 11:15, then Christ shall judge the world - Rev. 11:18 that would be at the second coming same with Matt 25:31-33.

Before our gathering together, God shall allow army of the east to march across dried Euphrate River during sixth trumpet of Rev. 9:14-16 & sixth vial of Rev.6:12

Then, Christ shall come like as THIEF that we shall watch for - Rev. 16:15. So, we shall be delivery before the battle of armageddon - Rev. 16:16.

Then, the seventh vial pour down, saying, "IT IS DONE" - Rev. 16:17 same with Rev. 10:7 saying, "the mystery of God should be FINISHED".

I realized the book of Revelation was written in parallels and cycles as these are retelling the events. Seals, trumpets, vials, all of them are merging together toward the end at the second coming.

"The Blessed Hope" of Titus 2:13 does not saying it is 'pretrib hope'. Pretribbers often use Titus 2:13 to prove it is pretrib doctrine. But, Titus 2:13 does not saying our blessed hope escape from the tribulation. The blessed hope is ETERNAL LIFE - Titus 1:2, & Titus 3:7.

The blessed hope is for our body all chnage into immortality and glory that shall be at the second coming with His GLORIOUS APPEARING support with 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Romans 8:19-23; Luke 21:28, and also Eph. 4:30 too.

The Bible never promise us that we shall escape from persecution and tribulations.

Notice many missionaries acorss the world are now suffering the persecutions and tribulations. Aren't we better than them. How about the Early Christians? They were suffering and killed eaten by wild beasts in Colossuem during First Century to Second Century. Aren't we better than them? Thousands of Christians were suffering and killed by Catholics during 'Spanish Inquistion'. Aren't we better than them?

HOW ABOUT JESUS CHRIST?

Stop and think about the "Passion of Christ", look at the example of Christ, how does he suffered so much! 1 Peter 2:21 tells u,s that we should follow Christ's example that we should be suffer for Christ.

That what we appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

[ March 02, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: DeafPosttrib ]

 

Let you know, I have been edited previous post on the chart of seals, trumpets, and vials of Revelation fourth time. But, this is the looking way as this discussion forum should be. Oh well.

I hope that you understand what I am talking about on that chart of Revelation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

There is not one verse in Scripture that speaks of a secret, selective second coming. Every verse that has anything to do with the taking up of the saints to be with Christ is public, open and earth-shaking.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 says "..the Lord himself will come with a shout , with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God..." to say that the shout and the voice of the archangel and the trump of God can be heard only by Christian ears is to read something into scripture which it does not imply or state, either by comparing spiritual with spiritual, a precept here, a precept there, a line here, a line there.

Revelation 1:7: Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him, even so. Amen.

Again, no secrecy.

Zechariah 14:4 - "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the m ount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof.....

Very public event. Very visible catastrophe.

Millenialists would have a God who returns to an earth he abhors just so he can prove to the nation Israel that he means to fulfill his promises to them, that they shall reign on the earth.

Millenialists and secret rapturists would also have an earth where both believers and unbelievers reign and live together in a perfect millenium.

The fact is that when Christ returns, that is the last day of this universe, and judgment at the great white throne will be held in which every one whose name was not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into everlasting fire.

The thousand years is not a literal thousand years, but a figure of speech denoting absolute completion. Christ is ruling today in his spiritual kingdom, the hearts of his children, he rules and lives in them. When the designated time is complete, he will return.

 

pinoybaptist,

Amen! Preach it!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Well, let's try it again! The term "blessed hope" occurs in Titus 2:13, and so far as Strong's Concordance is concerned, only there. Surely the grammar of that passage should govern our use of the term, if we are to be NT Christians and not just theory-ologists?

There are two distinct things in the verse, one a clear affirmation of the deity of our Lord. He is
"the Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - and the single article before the two nouns requires that "kai" be translated "even" - "the Great God, even our Saviour Jesus Christ." We all are willing to accept the rules of Greek grammar here, surely, because they emphasize our Baptist understanding of the triune God.

BUT the first clause is grammatically the same!

There is one article for the two nouns, and once again the proper translation is "even" - "the blessed hope, even the glorious appearing ...."

Our blessed hope is not some "secret rapture," it is THE GLORIOUS APPEARING - one appearing, one end to the age, one final judgment as Jesus Himself stated over and over (see posts on other threads for several clear, literal references). Why do we want to follow anyone's chart of all the details when we have clear Scripture? So far, no one on the board has been willing to engage these texts, and I don't want to break the rules by re-posting the same thing on other threads, but I do hope someone will attempt a pre-trib or mid-trib explanation of Mt. 11:20-24 and 12:38-42, or John 5:25-29. These plain statements of Jesus do not justify anyone's dispensationalism, so far as my limited sight can tell. Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

Sorry, i don't know Greek.
I do know a bit of English.
"And" can mean:
1. connet two equal sets
2. connet two similar sets
3. denote an outline.

Here we need to know what the
Holy Spirit tells us about the two
sets:
1. Blessed Hope
2. His Glorious Appearing

Are there two exactly equal sets
(same membership) or two related sets?
(the outline doesn't seem likely here
else there would be more "and"s.
The postrib must say the two sets
are the same exact set.
The pretrib must say the two sets
are similiar sets.

As a pretrib I make the two sets
in Titus 32:13 the same two sets
as in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

1. Glorious hope - Titus
our gathering together unto Him - Thess.

2. His Glorious Appearing - Titus
3. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ - Thess.

depressed posties will, of course,
believe otherwise.