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Rapture: hocus-pocus

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by wopik, Mar 1, 2004.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Revelation chapter 4 to 19 does NOT saying, word, 'church' UP appear in the heaven either.

    Many pretribbers saying church is shown in Revelation chapter 19 as the marriage supper of the Lamb, and also the church is the the wife of Christ. I agree with them. Yet, the word, 'church' is NOT appear in Revelation chapter 19.

    Many pretribbers saying church is shown in Revelation chapter 20, that the church shall reigning with Christ on earth. I agree with them. Yet, 'church' is NOT appear in Revelation chapter 20.

    Many pretribbers saying church is shown in Revelation chapter 21, the church shall dwell in New Jerusalem upon the new earth. I agree with them. Yet, 'church' is NOT appear in Revelation chapter 20.

    'Church' finally appear in Rev. 22:16.

    Does that mean Church is exclude from Revelation chapter 19,20,21?????

    Same with Rev. 1:4 & Rev. 22:16 is 'sandwiche' the church together. Whole book of Revelation always given message to us as the Churches.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

    brumleyj, GOOOOOOOOOD to see you!!! [​IMG]
     
  2. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    DeafPosttrib,

    The actual word "rapture" does not appear as that word in the Bible. It is a word that means "catching away, or up". We see this definition of the word rapture in the bible, rather than the word. We also see it referred to as the gathering together unto the Lord. The church is not mentioned in the chapters you mentioned. That is correct. But the Bride of Christ is the church, and the rewards given to those who have overcome from the seven letters to the seven churches, receive their rewards, line up with those things in other parts of Revelation, as well as some of the things in the gospels, and those things in the New Testament. The church just means the called out ones. We are called out by God for God, to spread the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ. When we get to heaven, we are the bride brought to his Fathers house where there are many mansions, and where he has prepared a place for us, that where he is, there we may be also. Once there, we are betrothed, and become his wife, our marriage is consecrated, and this is where we receive our rewards for the works we have done. It is also referred to as the Bema Seat of Christ. This is why prior to our return with Jesus to earth, we are referred to as his wife, and no longer the bride, no longer the church - but his wife. The reason church is again mentioned in Revelation 22:16 is because the Lord is concluding the prophecy of the book, and informing John to testify these things to the churches (speaking in the present.)

    May the Lord richly bless you.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Michelle,

    I have a few questions for you,

    Are the saints of Rev. 13:7, the wife of Christ?

    Does the Bible saying that Abraham, Moses, David, Old Testament saints are excludefrom the part of the wife of Christ?


    Define the word, 'saints', what it means?

    Who shall dwell in the New Jerusalem - Rev. 21:9-10?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I disagree.
    The nouns describe two similar sets.

    May God's best blessing fall upon
    Brother R. Charles Blair, his family and
    his ministry. Amen!

    [​IMG]
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive AND remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice the archangel, AND with the trump of God: AND the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    Then we which are alive AND remain shall be caught up together with them in the air clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    Does the context of 1 Thess 4:15-17 mentioned FIVE comings????


    "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, AND of the Son,AND of the Holy Ghost:"

    Does this verse saying we have THREE GODS???

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  6. brumleyj

    brumleyj New Member

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    preach it deafpostrib amem you made a good point. keep it up [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    DeafPosttrib,

    Paul is saying that those who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, and were awaiting their resurrection bodies, will proceed those who are alive - still living, and not a dead corpse. Those who at the time the rapture happens that have not yet physically died (remain) will immediately follow them. Paul is consoling those of this church, that thought those who had passed away already, would not partake of the rapture. Paul is telling them not to worry, that they indeed would, and would proceed them, but as you appropriately pointed out, this is speaking of the same event, almost simultaneously. It is referring to the resurrection of the saints. Those who have passed away, their souls are present with the Lord, and when he comes, they will be with him, but recieve their glorified bodies (our hope) at the same time we do (we who have not yet experienced physical death). Some will not taste of death. Those are they who are alive and remain at the time of HIS calling us unto himself.

    Rev.13:7 is speaking of those who have become believers/saints during the tribulation period. Yes, scripture does indicate to us that there will be various stages of the first resurrection. The rapture (old (physically dead) and present (physically alive) saints), the two witnessess in Jerusalem, and those who have been martyred during the tribulation period which are all part of the first resurrection. These are all part of the Bride of Christ who become the wife of the Lamb just prior to returning to earth with the Lord upon white horses.

    When Jesus returns, and if all believers are promised the resurrection, who then will be the sheep on earth during the millenial reign, and how will Rev.20:8 be fulfilled if this(the rapture) takes place at the end of tribulation? What is the purpose of the millenial reign? The New Heaven and the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem follow the millenial reign. We who are the wife of Christ will reign with our Lord Jesus in our glorified bodies during the millenium. We will be like the angels, and not able to marry or produce children/seed. Why then is satan loosed for a time at the end of the millenium?

    Those who are the wife of Christ (church) and those who are the wife of God (Israel - the twelve tribes) dwell together in the New Jerusalem, as indicated to us with the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb ( on the 12 foundations), and the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel(on the twelve gates). This is where we will be one body dwelling together without a temple, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  8. amen_corner

    amen_corner New Member

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    I had a seminary professor say one time that the rapture/2nd coming had the picture behind of the people going out to meet the Lord as He came into Jerusalem, then they came in with Him. He said that was the way he believed it was going to happen...1st tribulation, then we meet Him as He is coming. Is that a good analogy?
     
  9. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    amen_corner,

    That is not what the scriptures say. No, it is not a good analogy. I do not agree, as I have explained in my previous posts.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Michelle,

    I will reply back to you tomorrow, because I have to work tonight - 3rd shift.
     
  11. vaspers

    vaspers New Member

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    Why use the non-biblical term "rapture". Reminds me of "passion" which means "suffering", but nobody except theologians mean this when they say "passion."

    "Our gathering together unto the Lord" is the biblical expression. Not "rapture" which generally means to most people "ecstasy". Another silly word to confuse unsaved people.

    But the gathering is not hocus pocus, and remember that Revelation deals with both Christian events and Jewish topics, so don't confuse the two.
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    michelle,

    I'm back.

    I was a premill before for a long time. I just became amill only 3 years ago. I am going to explain to you, why there are so many holes and conflicts of premill doctrine with the Bible.

    First of all, I thought amillennial is a false doctrine. I thought amill do not believe future reign with Christ on earth after the second advent. Also, I thought amill is anti-semetic. While that time, I was premill, I know nothing on amill doctrine. I heard amill little bit from Hal Lindsey and Peter Ruckman. They not really explain on amill deep enough. They just explaining amill as basic surface. First, I hear, amill doctrine is from Roman Catholic.

    Later, I misunderstood what amill really believe.

    If you and premills think amill doctrine is a dangerous and false.

    Didn't you realize that both premill and amill believe on many things what the Bible saying about the end times.

    1. Both believe Christ died on the cross for us - Romans 5:8

    2. Both believe Christ paid all our sins by His blood - Heb. 10:10

    3. Both believe Christ resurrection from the dead - Romans 10:9

    4. Both believe Christ now sit on the right hand of God the Father in heaven - Col. 3:1, Heb. 1:3

    5. Both believe Christ will come again at the second advent is future event.(Rev. 22:20 is my favorite verse!) :D

    6. Both believe the gospel is spread over the world to the Gentiles - Matt. 28:19-20 Mark 16:15 & Acts 1:8

    7. Both believe apostasy is increasing over the world throughout the centuries of the church history till the second advent - 2 Thess. 2:3; 2 Tim. 3:1-7, 2 Tim. 4:3,4

    8. Both believe Satan is alive and remain dangerous, he is seeking to destroy Christians - 1 Peter 5:8

    9. Both believe Satan was defeated by Calvary - Gen. 3:15

    10. Both believe Antichrist will be defeat & cast away into the lake of fire - Rev. 19:20

    11. Both believe all Christians shall be caught up - 1 Thess. 4:17

    12. Both believe ALL Christians shall be resurrection - physical and literal - 1 Thess. 4:16

    13. Both believe ALLLL Christians will become into immortality - never die again forever and ever at the second advent - 1 Cor. 15:51-54

    14. Both believe ALLL of us will face the judgment seat of Christ - 2 Cor. 5:10

    15. Both believe we shall reign with Christ on earth at the second advent - PHYSICAL AND LITERAL - Dan. 7:14,18; & Rev. 1:6

    16. Both believe old earth will be burned away - II Peter 3:10, Rev. 21:1

    17. Both believe we shall see a new earth - Rev. 21:1

    18. Both believe Satan shall be cast away into the lake of fire - LITERAL

    19. Both believe there shall be NO MORE building of the temple on a new earth, because Christ IS the temple - Rev. 21:22

    20. Both believe there shall be NO unbeliever left remain on the new earth after the judgment day - Rev. 20:14-15

    I am thinking of anything else to add in the list, that both premill and amill believe. THere are many areas in the Bible, that both premill and amill agree.

    There is much misunderstanding what amill really believe. Premill often accuse on amill, call them, false doctrine. But, that is not true.

    Also, premill saying on amill, 'Why not you tear Revelation chapter 20 out of the Bible'. They wrongly accuse on amill.

    Every amills believe Revelation chapter 20. No amill deny Revelation 20. Amill intepreting Revelation 20 differently as premill interpreting.

    Bible does not saying it. Bible does not support the idea teaching of split comings, or two phases of the second coming. Bible teaches us there is only ONE future coming of Christ at the end of the age/world.

    Let's look to 1 Cor. 15:23 - "But every in his own order: (1.) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (2.)they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING."

    It tells us, the first ressuection was Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. THEN the next resurrection for Christians shall be AT HIS COMING. Verse 23 does not say two comings, it says, only ONE coming.

    John 5:27-29 - "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the HOUR is coming, in the which ALLLLLLL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD(against OSAS), unto the resurrection of life; and they have DONE EVIL(against OSAS}, unto the resurrection of damnation."

    John 5:27-29 tell us, Christ shall judge everyone on the last day, both believers and unbelievers shall be resurrection same time, these believers who DONE GOOD shall have eternal life, these unbelievers who DONE EVIL shall have eternal punishment - lake of fire. The Bible teaches us there is only ONE judgement day, not three judgement days according to pretribulation doctrine.

    The resurrection shall be on the LAST DAY - John 6:39,40,44, & 54.

    Even a 5th or 6th Grade student CAN understand what 'last day' means.

    A student KNOW when the lsat day of the school shall be. Once the last day come and pass, then the next day- NO MORE SCHOOL for summer! Same with at the end of the age/world.

    Bible does not saying there shall be another 2,555 days AFTER the 'pretrib rapture' then the next event shall be the second coming, neither there shall be another 365,000 days AFTER the second advent, then there shall be resurrection of unbelievers either. Last day simple mean FINAL day of the age would be at the second advent.

    This post is long already. I better stop, I will make another post - part two.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Continue....

    There have been debate whose are the two witnesses for many centuries. Many believe they are Elijah, and Enoch, many believe they are Elijah and Moses, etc..

    Often, pretrib inteprets two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 - literal two persons.

    Remember, the book of Revelation is a heavily symbolic meanings. I used to believe the two witnesses are literal two persons. Now, I realized two witnesses are figurative as spiritual people. Notice Rev. 11:4 says, 'the two olive trees', 'the two candlesticks'. Olive tree represents individuals of Jews and Gentiles believers - Romans chapter 11 talk about the olive tree. Candlesticks represents believers who carry the gospel with light, also, the churches are the candlesticks - Rev. 1:20.

    How do I know the two witnesses are individuals of Jew and Gentile believers? Look above Rev. 11:1 says, 'the temple of God'. Pretrib interprets it - literal future building of the temple in Jerusalem during tribulation period. They misintereting it. The temple of God represent Church. We are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 3:16-17 and 6:19-20.

    Rev. 11:2 tells us, that the Gentiles shall persecute against the temple of God for 42 months, means unbelievers shall persecute against the saints - Rev. 11:7 & Rev. 13:7.

    Rev. 11:3 tells us, God given the power to the believers, and they shall carry the gospel over the world during under the reign of Antichrist for 1260 days or 42 months.

    Rev. 11:5 does not take it into literally. 'Fire proceedeth out of their mouth' represents, believers have the power to preach God's Word to warning to the unbelievers about the judgement day.

    Rev. 11:6 does not take it into literally. It represents, believers have the power to pray to God send any judgements fall down upon them.

    Look at the example of the ten plaques fall down upon Egytians, while Hebrews were protect by God same time. The same thing, God shall do to us - Rev. 12:6 & 14, while God punishing upon the unbelievers same time.

    Rev. 11:7 tells us, Satan shall be loosed out of the bottomless pit - 2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 17:8 and Rev. 20:3,7. Then, Satan shall persecute against Christians - Rev. 13:7.

    Rev. 11:8 does not take it into literally. This verse give us the picture of horrible bloodshed martyrdom over the world. 'Great City' of Rev. 11:8 is not literal Jerusalem, it represent mystery Babylon of the world - Rev. 17:5, 18:10. Rev. 11:8 tells us, unbelievers across the world will WATCH us suffering to death! Same what people of Rome in Colossuen watched thousands of Christians suffered to death eaten by wild beasts!

    Notice, it says, "the great city, WHICH SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." The great city is not literal Jerusalem. It represents, Babylon, the great is the evil world system that killed Christ by crucified. Do, we looking forward for future restoration city - Sodom again? No, Sodom is no longer exist, it was already destroyed by fire in Genesis chapter 19.

    Rev. 11:9 - I already explained, that the people over the world will WATCH Christians suffering to death - publically!!! How? by T.V.!!!

    Notice, 'three days and an half' is not a literal 3 1/2 days. It represents, 1260 days or 42 months or 'time, and times and dividing a time'(3 1/2 years). Rev. 11:9 tells us, dead Christians will NOT put into the graves but leave outside!!!

    Remember the history of Early Church, Romans persecuted against Christians. Many Christians were beheaded, and put their heads HANG on the poles on both sides of the street many miles TOWARD ROME!!!!!!! So, many unbelievers were able to SAW dead Christians' face many miles! This will be repeat!!!

    Rev. 11:10 tells us, the world will be happy to see many Christians died, because they HATE the truth.

    Rev. 11:11 tells us, when the Spirit of God enter dead Christians, then they get rise from the death, the world shall be FEAR see all Christians rise from the death.

    Then, Rev. 11:12 tells us, God called all Christians rise up to heaven, that is RAPTURE!!! Even, the unbelievers will see believers rise up in the air same time!

    How? Matt 24:30 & Rev. 1:7 tell us, Christ's coming shall not be a secert, but visibly and noisy, EVERY person of the world will SEE Christ coming in the clouds with power and glory!


    Rev. 11:13 tells us, at the same time the wrath of God pour down upon the unbelievers with great earthquakes. 'Seven thousand' - I believe it does not take literal, but represent thousands, thousands, probably 7 billions? Right now, the world population is 6.3 billion. Maybe by the time the world population reach 7 billions, the the end time arrived. But I can't prove, I could be wrong about it.

    I believe Rev. 11:13 is same with Rev. 18:10.

    Rev. 11:14 tells us, the second woe is past, and behold the third woe come quickly, I believe the second woe represents 7 trumpets comes to pass, the the third woe - 7 vials come quickly.

    THEN........ Rev. 11:15 tells us, at the SEVENTH trumpet sounds, saying "The Kingdoms of this world are BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign FOR EVER AND EVER(it does not saying limited 1000 years)." It means, at the seventh trump sounds, the mystery is FINISHED- the end of the age is arrived.

    Clearly, the seventh trump is the last trump of 1 Cor. 15:51-52 and Rev. 10:7 too.

    Rev. 11:11-12, 15 is the picture of rapture at the last trump of 1 Cor. 15:51-54, 1 Thess 4:15-17. Remember, the rapture cannot be occur yet till the resurrection comes FIRST - 1 Thess 4:16 & Rev. 11:11.

    Rev. 11:16-17 is the picture of great victory and triumph in the heaven praise and worship before God in the throne same with Rev. 19:1-3.


    THEN.... Rev. 11:18-20 tell us, the judgment day comes, God shall judge all nations with his wrath, and He shall GIVE the rewards to the saints. Rev. 11:18-20 is the picture of the great white throne.

    First, in my early Christian life, I thought the book of Revelation is chronological. The seven seals begins with the first 3 1/2 years of seven year tribulation, then the seven trumpets in the middle of seven tribulation period, then, the seven vials in the last of 3 1/2 years of seven year tribulation period. But, now, I realized, book of Revelation is not chronological, it shown retelling and cycles like as parallels. John's visions run like as 'T.V. replay'. Seals, trumpets, vials, all are merge together toward the end of the age at the second advent same time.

    This post is already long. I better stop now. I will discuss more in the post - part three.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  14. brumleyj

    brumleyj New Member

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    way to go :D preach it amem you made a excllent two long post. congrts to you. deaf posttrib

    jbrumley
    ps 27:1
    amem
     
  15. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    DeafPosttrib,

    I appreciate all your hard work that you have obviously done by your posts. I still strongly disagree, and I see that you are not understanding the scriptures pertaining to the rapture and the triblulation period in the proper perspective, because you are spiritualizing things that are meant to be literal. You are also not recognizing that God will fulfill all promises he made to the children of Israel and that he has not ordained us (his church) to His wrath. The tribulation period is God's wrath upon the world, and the redemption of the nation of Israel. Scriptures couldn't be clearer on this. Your attempt at spiritualizing the two witnesses is also in serious error. You seem to be taking a very gnostic approach to your understanding of prophecy, which can mislead you.

    Again, the rapture is not the same as the second coming of the Lord, and I have explained this in depth to you, to the best of my ability. The trump does not mean trumpet, as in the last trumpet. The trumpets in the book of Revelation are Judgements/wrath of God. WE are not ordained to go through the wrath of God. The verse clearly says trump of God, not trumpet.

    trump: 1. any playing card of a suit ranked higher than any other suit for a given hand 2. such a suit - vt., vi. to play a trump on (a trick, etc.).

    I personally think this trump is Jesus Christ our Lord. This is my opinion. However, this verse does not even hint at this being the last trumpet.

    Yes, the scriptures do verify many stages of the first resurrection. The resurrection of our Lord, the rapture(old and present saints), the two witnesses, and those martyred during tribulation period. All these are part of the first resuurrection, and are the church or bride of Christ. We then become his wife in heaven, prior to returning with him to earth, for the literal millenial reign and fulfill promises to the nation of Israel. After the millenial reign, satan is loosed and then the Great White Throne judgement takes place, and this is the second death. All those who have been in hell, and all those who have lived on earth during the millenium will be resurrected for judgement. Some to eternal hell, and some to everlasting life. Then we shall all live as one in the New Jerusalem. Please read Revelation, and read it literally, as the plain text reads, unless otherwise appropriate. Do your own study on this, and ask yourself, how was the prophecy of Jesus Christ fulfilled when he first came. Since God does not change, we can therefore know, that prophecy will be fulfilled in the same exact manner as with all his prophecies - literally. I am sorry that your friend helped to pull you away from the beautiful truth and promise of the rapture. It is sad, that you would believe that you must endure God's wrath upon this earth. It is sad that you don't believe God will be true to his promises to Israel, because if he does not fulfill his promise to them, how then can we trust he will fulfill them for us? As he has said, he will redeem all of Israel (the children of Israel) for HIS HOLY NAMES SAKE.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Continue.... part three.

    "...The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, NAY(no), lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST: and in the TIME of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." - Matt. 13:28b-30.

    The servants ask to their master, should we go ahead gathering the tares? The master tells them, NO, leave them, let BOTH tares and wheat growing TOGETHER TILL the harvest comes.

    That means, both unbelievers and believers are growing together over the world today. Believers CANNOT be separate from unbelievers TILL the end of the age come - Matt 13:39-42.

    Matt 25:31-46 is same with Matt 13:39-42 ALSO, in Rev. 14:14-20 talks about the harvest at the end of the age.

    Bible tells us, ALLLLLL unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting punishment, NO unbelievr shall be left remain after the second advent - Matt 24:37-39. Remember the lesson of the flood, when the flood came and destroyed all people, NO unbeliever survived after the flood, EVERY unbelievers were dead, only 8 people alive left!

    Same with at the coming of Christ shall be!

    1 Cor. 15:50 tells us, NO mortal person shall enter the eternality kingdom.

    None anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 25 describe about 'a thousand years'. Matthew 25:31-46 tells us, WHEN Christ comes with his angels, He shall sit on the throne - great white throne, and all people shall be gathering into divided unto two groups - believers and unbelievers. All unbelievers shall enter everlasting punishment - lake of fire - Matt 25:46. But, all believers shall have ETERNAL LIFE - Matt 25:46. Matt 25:46 does not saying a believer shall die DURING millennial kingdom according to premill doctrine.

    1 Cor. 15:51-54 tells us, when Christ comes, ALLLLLLLLLLLLL of us as believers shall all changed into IMMORTALITY. Immortlaity means never dying, never die forever and ever. Amen.

    Once, Christ comes, we all shall be caught up, and change into immortality body, that means we shall have glory new body be like Christ and angels, we shall NEVER, NEVER die again forever!

    There is no scriptural support premill doctrine teaches that any remain survivors(who will miss rapture, shall be saved during tribulation period) will be remain in mortal and enter millennial kingdom, but they will die during millennial kingdom.

    How about Isa. 65:20? Often premill uses that verse to prove that people shall live longer, and will die during millennial kingdom.

    The problem is, none in the context of Isaiah chapter 65 mentioned about 'a thousand years'.

    The context of Isaiah 65 is the picture of future perfect eternality conditional, that would be at the second coming.

    Notice Isa, 65:17-20 talk about future new heavens and a new earth. Isa. 65:17-20 refer with 2 Peter 3:12-13 and Rev. 21:1-4. Obivously, Isa. 65:17-20 talk about future perfect eternality conditional, that we shall dwell on them.

    There are two parts of Isa. 65:20, the first part of Isa. 65:20 speaks of believer shall never die again, because believer shall become into immortality same with 1 Cor. 15:51-54.

    It says, "There shall be NO MORE thence an infant of days, NOR an old man that hath not filled his days:", - Isa. 65:20a It tells us, a person shall never be dying again, because person shall become into immortality - 1 Cor. 15:51-54. Also, Isa. 65:20a is same with Rev. 21:4 -"there shall be NO MORE DEATH". Obivously, all people shall be immortality, and they shall dwell in New Jerusalem forever and ever.

    "for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the SINNER being an hundred years old(why???) shall be ACCURSED"

    It does not take literally, that a person would die at EXACTLY age 100, it tells us, sinner shall be die, because of judged.

    Romans 5:12 tells us, every sinners have to die, because of Adam sinned, then he passed to all people have sinned, that why we have to die.

    Notice there is parallel between Isa. 65:17-20 & Isa. 66:22-24 talk about new heavens and a new earth. Notice verse 24 talk about sinner/unbeliever shall be suffer in the lake of fire with worms and fire shall never stop. Isa. 66:24 refers with Mark 9:44, 46, and 48 - "worms dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

    Obivously, Isa. 65:20b, Isa. 66:24 talk about sinners/unbelievers shall be suffer punishment into the lake of fire is eternality punishment!

    I hope that you understand what Isa. 65:20 talk about.

    Ok, let discuss on Gog and Magog.

    Many believe Ezekiel 38 and 39 shall be happen at the end of tribulation period.

    Notice several have different view on the timing of Ezekiel 38-39.

    Some believe it will be occur sometimes before tribulation period begins.

    Some believe it will be occur at the beginning of tribulation period.

    Some believe it will be occur during in the middle of seven year tribulation period.

    Some believe it will be occur at the end of Tribulation period.

    EVEN, some believe believe it will be occur at the end of millennium.

    Which one of them is correct?

    I believe Ezekiel 38 and 39 will be occur at the end of tribulation period? Why? Before I start to discuss on it.

    How about Ezk. 39:9? It tells us, they shall burn the weapons for SEVEN YEARS.

    I heard several pretribbers saying on Ezk 39:9 is a good possible to prove there is seven year of Tribulation period. Is that correct?

    If suppose they saying Ezekiel 38 & 39 will be occur at the beginning of tribulation period, it is correct.

    So, when the armies invaded against Israel, all armies be destroyed, they shall clean all weapons, and cast them in fire for the next seven years. Then when after the seven years past, all weapons all are finally done and clean. But, not again, there is ANOTHER invasion of armies toward Israel. After all armies are destroyed, they would HAVE TO burn all weapons all over again for ANOTHER seven years total is 14 years.

    Is that make a sense? No.

    If suppose, they believe the invasion of Ezk. 38 & 39 will be occur during in the mid of tribulation period, after the armies are destroyed, they will burn all weapons for the next seven years. But, not again by in the HALF-WAY, there is another invasion again, they would HAVE TO burn all weapons all over for another seven years total is 10 1/2 years.

    Is that make a sense? No.

    If suppose, they believe the invasion will be occur at the end of tribulation period is correct.

    I believe it will be occur at the end of Tribulation period.

    Why I believe it will be occur at the end of tribulation period.

    I want to show you the most important KEY word of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is "FOWL".

    Remember, notice important word - 'fowl'. Why 'fowl'?

    Notice Ezekiel 39:17-20 tell us, God shall send fowls down to eaten all people because of judgement.

    Why I emphasis on word, 'fowl'?

    Fowl means vultures or deadly birds.

    I have a good reason why I believe Ezekiel 38 & 39 will be occur at the end of tribulation period.

    Go look in Matt. 24:28 says, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the EAGLES be gathered together."

    I believe Matt 24:28 speaks of the battle of armageddon, that the eagles shall be gathering together, then fly down to eaten armies' skin.

    Also, look to Luke 17:34-37, Christ tells us, there shall be thief in the night, person shall be caught away. The disciples do not understand Him, they asked, where? Christ said, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the EAGLES be gathered together."

    Luke 17:34-37 tells us, when Christ comes, all unbelievers shall be taken away, He shall send vultures fly down and eaten unbelievers. That would be at the battle of armageddon.

    Now, look to Rev. 19:17-18 tell us, the angel shall call fowls flying together, and fly down to eaten unbelievers.

    Clearly, Ezekiel 39:17-20, Matt. 24:28, Luke 17:37, and Rev. 19:17-18 are all fit together speak of one future judgement day, to send fowlws to eaten unbelievers that shall be at the end of tribulation period.

    I am no doubt the timing of Ezekiel 38 & 39 will be occur at the end of tribulation period.

    How about Ezk. 39:9 - 'seven years'??

    I have good reason why the weapons shall be burn for seven years after the second advent.

    I have an illustration:

    Pretribulation teaches that the judgement seat of Christ shall be begin at the tribulaiton period. The judgment seat of Christ will take at least seven years, then after that, Christians shall have the marriage supper of the Lamb. If suppose, they are correct.

    That means, about 200 millions of alived Christians caught up. Then, God shall judge all 200 millions of alived Christians.

    How long, God shall judge 200 millions of alived Christians?

    Let's do math.

    To figure out see how long it take to judge all 200 millions.

    Let start with seconds.

    60 seconds equal a minute. 60 seconds x 60 minutes = 3600 seconds equal one hour. 3600 seconds x 24 hours = 86,400 seconds equal one day. 86,400 seconds x 365 days = 31,536,000 seconds equal one year. 31,536,000 seconds x 7 years = 220,752,000 seconds.

    To judge 220 millions of alive Christians will take for 7 years. That means, God would have to judge one person for average one to two seconds.

    Do God have enough time to judge all alive Christians while He prepared for the marriage supper of the Lamb? How about millions of dead Christians from the creation to the 'end of the Church age'? God knows it is no time to set marriage supper of the Lamb. God would have to be hurry to judge all Christians squeeze into limited seven years of tribulation period. No time for the marriage supper of the Lamb. What Christians do with supper, while riding with Christ on horses to earth? Christians would have to take lunch bag with sandwiche with them ride on horses to follow Christ come down to earth.

    Does the timing of judgement seat of Christ according to pretrib doctrine - make a sense?

    NO!

    I have no problem with Ezekiel 39:9. I agree that the weapons shall be burn for seven years. Why?

    The great white throne will take for long, long, long time take so many years to judge ALLLLLL people from the creation to the end of the age, Christ shall judge billions and billions of people. I have no problem with Ezekiel 39:9.

    Because they shall burn the weapons WHILE the great white throne is under the way same time. They clean and burn the weapons for only seven years. But the great white throne will take so many years to come. No problem, after they done with all weapons, then, they will be invlove to watch the great white throne.

    You might not agree with my logical about the timing of Gog and Magog. That is fine with me.

    Some saying Gog battles will be twice according to Rev. 20:8.

    Does Ezekiel 38, 39 saying it will be occur TWICE??? None. It tells us, it will be occur at once.

    Do you see Gog and Magog mentioned TWO times in the book of Revelation? No.

    Understand, book of Revelation is not chronological. It shown of retelling the events, it shows of cycles and parallels.

    Revelation chapter 19 ends at the second advent. Revelation chapter 20 ends at the second advent.

    Hey, why not 'fowls' mentioned in Revelation 20?

    It is not necesscary to tell repeat. There are many details to describel what will be happen AT Christ's coming.

    Zechariah 14:4 does not mentioned resurrection. Matt. 24:31 does not mentioned resurrection.
    Revelation chapter 19 does not mentioned rapture/resurrection.

    Does that mean rapture/resurrection is exclude from Zech. 14:4, Matt 24:31, and Rev 19? No.

    Understand, there are many details what will be happen AT Christ's coming.

    Boy! This post is so long. I better stop now. I will make another post to be continue - part four.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    michelle,

    hold on, I am not finish reply to you from yesterday's of your post.
     
  18. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Dear Michelle:

    I am sorry to inform you that God is done with national Israel, the physical Israel no longer figures in God's economy. Their role is over. It ended at the cross.

    Israel, like many other things and person in the Bible, had a purpose. And that was to show the depths and extent of God's mercy, unfathomable as it is, to the true Israel, the spiritual one, composed of physical Jews and Gentiles.

    When Paul said in Romans 9 that all Israel will be saved, he was referring to the spiritual Israelites who were part of the physical Israelites, . Paul was simply saying what he already said in Romans 8:29-30 (between the lines: no dropouts, everyone is redeemed, Jew or Gentile, that must be redeemed).
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Continue.... part four.

    WE are now reigning with Christ in spiritually, because Christ already victory over Satan by Calvary. We were dead in sin, but NOW, Christ quickened us - Eph. 2:1, 5. Eph. 2:1,5 speak of our spiritual life, after our born again. Before we born again, we were dead in sin - spiritually. We have the first death is spiritual because of sin. So, we have to be born again, and Christ quickened us again, means He make us life.

    Many Christians who were beheaded in the past, are now reigning with Christ in the heaven. That is called the first resurrection. Because, we do not receive the second death. Second death is both spiritual and physical go to lake of fire. Not only many Christians were beheaded, also, many Christians who already died throughout centuries, are now reign with Christ in heaven.

    Revelation chapter 20 does not saying our reigning ON EARTH.

    Remember, Revelation chapter 20 is a heavily symbolic and figurative meanings.

    Tomorrow or Monday, I will discuss more on 'a thousand years', what itself mean? Many believe 'a thousand years' of Rev. 20:2-7 is literal exactly length of 1000 years. I used to believe it before. Now, I realize it is figurative meaning. I will discuss more on it tomorrow or on Monday.

    I am not deny that we shall reign with Christ ON earth after the second advent. I am exciting looking forward to reign with Christ on earth after the second advent. That would be a bless for Christians!

    Right now, Satan is control governments and system in the world with wicked. When Christ comes, He shall cast all wicked away into destruction. And He will get the old earth rid out, and he shall recreate it into all new again, then all saints and God shall posses all lands over the new earth last forever and ever. Our reigning will never, never end for forever and ever. I am looking forward for it!!

    That's correct. I agree with you. Your comment is find in Luke 20:35-36.

    Notice, Luke 20:34 tells us, people are given to marry and produce more children during THIS AGE(world). That means, right now, people are given to marry and to produce more children in this present age.

    But, Luke 20:35-36 tells us, in the next age to come, NO person shall be given to marry and produce children, because they are like as angels. Why? Because they are "being the children of the RESURRECTION."

    Also, 1 Cor. 15:51-54 tells us, when Christ comes, all of us shall change into immortality, that means no more sin, and no more dying. We will not given to marry and sex to produce children, because we shall be glory body to be like Christ and angels - 1 John 3:2.

    Premill teaches that these sheep who shall be survived through whole seven year of tribulation period, shall be remain mortal body, and will enter millennial kingdom, to produce more children.

    No scripture supports premill doctrine.

    Matt 24:37-39 and Matt 25:46 tell us, ALLLLL unbelievers(goats) shall be cast away into everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

    But, 'righteous' into LIFE ETERNAL."

    Eternal means no ending, it last everlasting, forever and ever.

    Matt 25:46 does not saying, a righteous shall die during supposed 'millennial kingdom'. It tells us, all righteous shall enter LIFE ETERNAL. Same with 1 Cor, 15:51-54.

    Every righteous shall have immortality and shall never die again forever and ever.

    During eternality kingdom on the new earth there shall be NO death, NO unbeliever on the new earth. All righteous shall dwell on new earth forever and ever!!

    The Bible makes so simple and clear.

    2 Thess 2:6-7 tell us, Satan is now holding back from being to be loose out. Because, God given us the power to spread the gospel over the world. satan cannot stop us from spreading the gospel over the world. Satan could have loose out of the way now, if he wants to. But, God have the authority to hold satan from being to be revealed, because it is his(Satan)time yet. Till apostasy(2 Thess 2:3) become worser, God knows when the right time, He shall allow Satan to loose out of the way, and then to be revealed - 2 Thess 2:7-8.

    Same with Rev. 11:7,12:9, Rev. 17:8.

    Once, Satan loose out of the way, and he shall be revealed to the world, the great tribulation shall be hit Christians so hard. Many people in the world shall be deceived, even Christians might be deceived also - Matt 24:24.

    Satan's loose and decived the nations for only a little season(Rev. 20:3b). His time is limited for only 42 months, 1260 days, 'a time, times, and dividing a time', 3 1/2 years.

    Rerember, when Christ was on earth, he was doing ministry for 3 1/2 years according to follow the passover day three times - John 2:13; 6:4; and 13:1. Also, Daniel 9:26-27 too.

    The same thing as Satan shall copy Christ's way, that he will act like as real Messiah to make the world to believe on him, think he is their real God. Many will be deceived, even Christians might be deceived also - Matt 24:24.

    After 42 months of Satan's work past, Christ comes, and He shall destroy Satan's work - 2 Thess 2:8, cast Satan into the lake of fire forever and ever.

    Premill asks amill, 'can't you see Satan is deceiving the world now?'

    Satan cannot deceived the world - Satan cannot stop Christians from spreading the gospel over the world.

    But, when Christians turn away from the Lord, and the gospel become decling, God knows when the right time, God shall allow Satan loose out of the way and to deceived the world.

    I hope that you understand what amill really believe.

    How about 'a thousand years'? I will discuss more deep on it tomorrow or Monday.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  20. Gayla

    Gayla New Member

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    Why do folks who don't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture insist on calling it a "Secret Rapture"?
    The only thing secret about it is when it will occur.

    Bro Ed, great post.

    edit to add: I am referrign specifically to the one starting "Bro deaftrib, you're going to get me in trouble . . . "
     
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