Rapture: hocus-pocus

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Bro. Charles,

Are you sure that he isn't speaking of the tribulation saints here? ARe you sure he is not speaking of Israel, and those saved during this time? He did reference scriptures speaking specifically about Israel, not the church.

I thought I had read that he believed and taught the rapture. I will have to check on this. You are right though, it doesn't matter what an early church father said about it, but I was only trying to prove the point that it is not a modern belief as many are falsely claiming. I know that it is the truth, because God has shown me this truth in the scriptures.

May the Lord bless you all abundantly with his mercy and grace.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Here is a link to a webpage regarding an early church father regarding the pre-trib rapture belief:

http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

michelle, and every pretribbers:

please read - www.lasttrumpet.com look for 'Pseudo-Pseudo-Ephraem' down at left side - "Historical Evidence", click on Pseudo. Read it. Tim Warner doing good job on research about the Church history of the doctrine. I urge you, please read that article of Pseudo. Pseudo was a flaw evidence of pretrib doctrine. Its explain to you why it was so flaw. Tim Warner reads these articles very well.

Later, I will reply back to you and Ed, what you said yesterday.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

yes early church to reformation age believe in one future coming of christ

www.lasttrumpet.com has a excllent scoure information on church history i recommend everyone to read www.lasttrumpet.com

i said congtrs to you again you make another one or two long post

jbrumley
ps 27:1
amem

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

I looked up the site you both kindly referred us to, not because I was at all in doubt, but to be respectful to you. However, I must say, that I could not stomach most of it. I have read this all before - I have read all sides of this issue, and reasons for ones eschatological beliefs. I must highly disagree with their conclusions as well as thier understanding and twisting of the scriptures, added to the fact that these people are trying to hide behind the greek to make their points look accurate and valid. I am not a scholar, but I am also not an idiot, and I can see when one is trying to pull the blindfold over the eyes of the common person with all their scholarly rhetoric. I have faith that God Almighty preserved his pure word of truth in the English language for the average english speaking christian to be able to understand what the text reads, and I find it insulting to me to say the least, but insulting God Almighty in truth and denying his ability to give to his people the truth he so desired us to have, without need of knowlege of the greek.

I am disgusted at the fact that they would try to deny the imminency of our Lord Jesus Christ with the very scriptures that tell us about the imminency of Christ to prove thier point. This is what is called twisting the scriptures my dear friends. They have done an excellent job of doing this. May the devil applaud them for decieving those who might not know enouph. To claim that the imminency of Christ was not taught by the apostles, because of the excuses they give is utterly inexusable! I am not an idiot, and I know enouph that the imminency being spokeon of in the scriptures pertains to the day of the Lord, to which the apostles were laying the foundations of the church - totally different situation and cannot compare to the imminency spoken of in the scriptures! This is clearly given to us PLAINLY in the word of God. We are commanded to be prepared spiritually every day so that when he comes, we will be ready to go. It has absolutely nothing to do with watching for signs of his coming - signs were meant for Israel and they were always indicative of coming judgements - WHICH THE CHURCH IS NOT ORDAINED FOR. The day of the Lord is the tribulation period, which are the Judgements of God Almighty upon this earth. We are not ordained to go through these judgements. This is why we are commanded to watch and be sober, watch for signs? Or rather watch that we do not fall away, and continue growing in our spiritual walk, so that day does not pass us by and we find ourselves in tribulation!

To use the example of Pauls epistle to the church to comfort them, as evidence that they must endure tribulation is absolutely the most ridiculous thing. It is twisting the real truth of the scripture, in that Paul was COMFORTING those in the church that were falsely told they were GOING THROUGH THE DAY OF THE LORD, which was the opposite of what they had thought, and Paul was comforting them that they would not, and indeed in that day were not, as that would not come until the revealing of anti-christ. These poor people, thought they had missed the rapture, or blessed hope, and were enduring God's wrath. This is why Paul states for them not to be soon shaken. If this was what they were to expect, why then were they shaken by this? Why then did Paul comfort them? If that were the truth, then they would have been rejoicing, not shaken.

All I can say, if you would rather believe what some men are telling you, rather than learning from God himself through reading his word of truth, and relying upon the Holy Spirit to give you understanding of the truth, by all means go ahead. I plead with you, however, to pray about this, with a sincere desire in your heart to know the TRUTH and study for yourselves, the truth in this beautiful promise of our wonderful, faithful and true Lord Jesus Christ.

I have no more to say regarding this matter. I cannot stomach anymore, those who claim to be of the Lord, and then deny the power and promises of the Lord. My prayer is the the Lord will bless you both abundantly and give you peace and understanding concerning this matter.

Until we meet in the air, peace to you all.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I doubt if you have anything that says
ONE AND ONLY ONE future coming of Christ.
Recall that if "1" is not specified,
then there can be 2 or 3 or 3.

---------


\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 10 Jan 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

I've prayed every day since Feb 2000
for Timn Warner and his wife
to have a good success. However,
i do NOT recommend his site. Too many
holes in his theories.

Tim Warner: ""If the pre-trib rapture is true, where was it introduced in the progressive revelation of Biblical prophecy?" Such a major event, that is not to be found in Old Testament prophecy or even in Jesus' own teaching, must have been unveiled to the Christian world at some point in time. When? Where?"

By Jesus in Matthew 24:31 - it is called
"the gathering". In 2 Thessalonains 2:1
- it is called "the gathering".

 

Sister Michelle - Just a quick note concerning the site on "Pseudo-Ephriam," 4th Century A. D. -
"pseudo" means "false." Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

Ed,

Correct. We know word, 'rapture' is not appear in the Bible. 'Gathering together' & 'caught up' is describe of rapture.

So, I agree with you on Matt 24:31 speaks of rapture. You aware that most pretribbers might not agree with you on Matt 24:31 speaks of rapture.

Yet, you intepreting Matt 24:31 - 'pretrib' rapture. Does Christ was actually saying it? That was your own word. You ignore the context of Matt 24:29-31 talk about Christ shall come after the tribulation, to gathering us together is the second coming.

Early Christians do not use word, 'rapture', because it was not popular in their time. Even, the position of rapture was not yet exist during in the first of 18 Centuries. Till in the late 19th Century, there were divided and split among Christians on the position timing of Lord's coming. Because of 1878 Nigara Confernece caused, thank to John Darby. 'Pretribulation' was being named among of these small groups. Many groups do not agree with these small group. While in the year during 1890's to 1900's, pretribulation camp become increasing and growing into popular, caused churche sinto splited. So, the groups decided to named 'posttribulation'. The reason is, to identify of thse groups, who they are, and what they believe.

Michelle, you say, that I am saying the Early Church deny rapture. No, no, no, no. That is not true.

Remember, early christians do not use word, 'rapture'. Because it was not popular for the doctrine or theology. All early Christians understood, that the gathering together IS at Lord's coming is ONCE a time - one event at the end of the world.

Early Christians believed Christ might come anytime in their lifetime. That does not making them pretrib. They believed Christ might come in their lifetime - once. They also believed, they have to go through tribulations first before Christ comes. Because early Christians ALREADY suffering tribulations. They thought they were already in tribulation. Even, they believed Pope is the Antichrist. I understand how do the Protestants feel toward Catholoc and Pope. They believe Pope is Antichrist. I respect them very well. Because they were so great suffering in heavy perscutions by Catholic during 'Spanish Inquistion era'. They thought Pope was Antichrist.

I know Pope was not the Antichrist. The one final future world dicator will be the Antichrist, that man will be acts like as Messiah. I believe Satan shall transform into man acts as Messiah. Same as what Jesus does 2000 years ago. Satan will copy Christ's way to deceived the world.

There are so overwhelm evidences on the Church history, all of them believed the only one future coming of Christ, even they believe that they have to go through tribulation first - Acts 14:22 and 1 Thess. 3:3-4 before Christ comes. They were clearly posttrib.

Ed,

I let you know I am not 100% agree with Tim Warner about dispensatinalism and millennium. Although I respect him very well. Because I am impress with him, that he doing good job by research to collect the informations on the Church history, what they believed on Lord's coming.

Tim Warner, and posttribbers do not twist scriptures from the Bible. We as postrib, understand the Bible very clear that Christ is coming back after the tribulation, because we must go through much tribulation - John 16:33, Acts 14:22, and 1 Thess. 3:3-4 BEFORE Christ comes. That is bibical.

Even many pretribbers admit Christ shall come again after the tribulation. Yet, they deny rapture IS the second coming.

There is no reason why should the 'gathering together' & 'caught up' should be separate from Lord's coming. Rapture always invlove with Lord's coming, because of what the Bible saying so.

Later I will dicuss more on that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Concerning "Pseudo-Ephraem" - WOW!! They found one! And that, possibly as early as the late fourth century, when the worship of saints and images was beginning to permeate professing Christianity, and the teaching of "infant baptism for salvation" was coming along! It is of some historical interest, of course. And Thomas Ice concedes that this "does not prove the pre-trib position." Thanks for opening a new door! Maybe we can find someone back there who believed that animals will have glorified bodies in the resurrection, or anything else we might want to teach! Oops - sorry if that is offensive, but it seems logical. Best - Charles - Rom. 8:28

 

ed edwards,

me and phil meet tim warner at posttrib conference in chatt,tenn about three year ago. i respect him very well. i telling you that i did not argee with tim warner in some of the area. yes, he did not twist scripture from bible. yes he does very good job research on church history.

does bible said five ressurrection ? none of 5 ressurrection has found in the bible. i understand frist ressurrection very clear from the bible. your theory does not fit well with scriptures.

jermiah 30:4-7 is not talking about future. you pulling out of context of jermiah whole 30 chapter you have to read jeremiah 29 and 30 chapter help you understand what he is talking about captivity into babyalon for 70 years.

rev 7:14-16 is talking ressurrection at end of the tribualtion and will face day of christ and siants will live in new heaven and new earth after judgment day of christ refer to rev 21 and rev 22.
i cor 15:51-54 and I thess 4:16-17 are both fit well also john 5:25-29 ,

you pulling out of context of matthew 13:28-30 you have to read matthew 13:28-50 is talking picture of last day of judgment at second advent.
refer to matthew 25:26-46, matthew 24:36-51
i understand daniel 12:2 very clearly talking about frist ressurrection at second adevent for final judgment righteous person go to everalsting life unbelief go to shame and everalsting punishment yes acts 24:15 is talking about first ressurrection for both at second advent

jbrumley
ps 27:1
amem

 

Excuse me, John and I didn't meet Tim Warner. we met different person from Penscola, FL at the conference 2 years ago. With Gavin (I forget his last name). He is good friend of Tim Warner's.

To make clear up about Tim Warner.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

jbrumley, Amen! Preach it!

 

thank you for encourage me up deafposttrib

 

Let you know, early Christians never heard 'pretrib' & 'posttrib', because there was no position on gathering timing. They believed future Lord's coming is the only one event.

Simple.

IN Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

jbrumley,

You're WELCOME!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

yeah, preach it deafposttrib

jbrumley
ps 27:1

 

Early Christians were expecting Christ might come anytime in their lifetime. But, it does not make them pretrib or posttrib either. Because, they believe Bible teaches, Christ is coming again - once. They also, believe they are go through tribulation first before Christ comes. That is what the Bible teaches us.


In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!