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Featured Rapture in 70 AD

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Jun 22, 2013.

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  1. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    That is a blatant myth proposed by only ONE PERSON, a pre-wrath rapture author that others have simply repeated ad nauseum. The rumor was that a Jesuit priest, Riberia, invented futurism to defend the Catholic Church.

    Have you ever read Ribera's commentary on Revelation? Most of the critics that espouse this rumor have never read Ribera's 500 page commentary. It's never been translated, and is all Latin. I have translated large portions of it, and Ribera merely attempts to prove that Revelation 17 is not referring to the Catholic church. This is hardly in line with what Baptists and even Reformers believe about the Catholic church.

    Thus it is erroneous to assume that Futurism derived from a person defending the RCC, when virtually all major denominations that hold to a futurist view believe that there is something sinister about Rome's involvement in the end-times, those of us who actually believe the Bible refer to the RCC as the WHORE. There is nothing remotely similar to anything that Ribera or Alcasar wrote to John Darby who popularized dispensationalism, not futurism. (There are several others who espoused to futurism, pre-tribulation rapture, and dispensationalism before Darby, but I'll save that for another thread.)

    The allegorical interpretations of Revelation and other prophecies did not occur until 200 years after the NT was finished. ALL of the early church pastors and writers believed in an imminent return of Christ. These views were never questioned until Origen and Augustine and since Augustine is credited as the first to coin the term Catholic Church, and is credited by the RCC as the founder of most of the RCC's doctrine, it is ironic that Augustine and the RCC are amellienial, and yet futurism is attributed to a rumor that says it has a Catholic origin! Futurism is something that to this day, Catholics deny, and the majority of all who follow Calvin in rejecting futurism, are themselves following the teachings of a man who borrowed his eschatology and soteriological views from a Catholic.

    The RCC does not now, nor has it ever held to a pre-tribulation or pre-millennial interpretation of Bible prophecy, so it is absurd to claim that futurism is a Catholic invention.
     
    #61 DrJamesAch, Jun 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2013
  2. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Ironclad logic. It is either A or B.

    Oh, wait. There are other letters in the alphabet.

    And there are other choices than the ones you narrowed it down to.
     
  3. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    How many alternatives are there between heaven and hell? Between Christ and Satan? Some things really are that black and white. But thank you for pointing out the alternatives without listing them.

    Ironclad response.
     
  4. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Fair enough. You gave only two choices: Either Revelation is not true or it is still future.

    The third choice, obviously, is that Revelation is both true and fulfilled.
     
  5. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    The difference is I gave several reasons why Revelation is yet future. For example:



    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1998173&postcount=16

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2000580&postcount=48

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2000578&postcount=47

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2000492&postcount=34

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2000454&postcount=31

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1996741&postcount=38

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1996121&postcount=31

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1996493&postcount=33

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1996494&postcount=34

    By the way:

    Should I take your signature and your critiques literally!
     
  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Yes, take my signature literally. I am just summing up with that sentence what Paul was saying in that passage: "The letter killeth".

    Why? Do you have a problem with that?

    And don't give me a whole slew of links and think that that is in any way proving anything. I also have an entire archive of Preterist articles, but I know better than just to say lamely, "Here - read these."

    We need particulars here. At the least, choose one of your links. Sum it up in a few sentences, and let me have it. Fair enough?
     
  7. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    Most of those links are on THIS THREAD. I'm not going to repeat the same thing I'd already written on the same thread.
     
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    HankD
    Then why do you chide preterist for doing exactly what you do?

    .

    The problem is futurist take the simplest and most easily understood concepts (time -statements) and change their meanings. Then take apocalyptic language and force literalism on those.

    Would love to hear your explanation on the death of infants at 100, the cursing of some and the corpses lying around. As DHK would say,"This is a terribly depraved place if it is "the new heaven and the new earth"

    See, you take a perfectly clear statement "draweth nigh" and just toss it aside as if it has no meaning. I can't do that, that phrase had a meaning to those you heard or read it.

    Not for the partial preterist ,it is in my opinion problematic for a full preterist
    Though they have an answer.

    Since God is revealing things to man, I would think He would use terms and concepts his creation would understand.

    I bet those to whom James was writing would have a different view.

    I understand, after about 4 pages it usually goes downhill
     
  9. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    I thought you were an idealist. My mistake then. :thumbsup:

    Same here regarding revelation.

    And yes. Many here are quite certain that they are 100% correct. I think they misunderstand "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."


    My responses are in red.
     
    #69 RLBosley, Jun 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2013
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Amen!

    HankD
     
  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Hello, Hank. Good to see you too.
     
  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    OK, I guess you are not going do what I asked.

    Fine. I will just answer your very first link:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1998173&postcount=16

    You wrote:
    One thing I noticed right away about you, James, is that you say things, but don't back them up. Where did you get the notion that Rome didn't use exile as a punishment until the time of Domitian? Romans were being exiled decades before the time of Domitian. What about Ovid? He was exiled in 8 AD to the Black Sea region by Caesar Augustus.
    Whose word do we take here, yours or the Bible's? Consider these verses:
    ------------------------------
    Act_19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

    Act_19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

    1Pe_1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,


    ------------------------------
    It is getting a little late, so most of this will have to wait until tomorrow.

    I started to dig into your first post, James, but so far I am just bringing up rocks, so to speak. You have made bare assertions, but without any proof. Hopefully tomorrow we will find something more substantial.
     
  13. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    And I supposed it was invented by John Darby in 1830. Once you agree that that is your premise, then we'll work backward from Morgan Edwards (1744) and others who taught it long before John Darby, Larkin, or Scofield made it popular.


    How has the focus been shifted if the churches still consider Rome the WHORE? That makes absolutely no sense. The Anabaptists didn't believe it and neither did the Reformers. Independent Baptists have continuously produced literature that labels Rome and the Pope as the beast and harlot. Inf fact, I have seen a list of the RCC's "Forbidden and Accursed Literature" that contains the names of several Baptists, one of them being Peter Ruckman and John R. Rice. Also on the list are writings of Avro Manhattan and Alexander Hislop (The Two Babylons).

    So please show me some kind of proof that Ribera's commentary changed the view of the fundamentalists on Rome! You are off your rocker with that accusation. The negative view of the RCC has been a consistently held view by the Baptists since the inception of the church. And apparently, the fact that I, as a fundamental Baptist, am even telling you that I believe the RCC is the beast doesn't seem to sink in.

    There is absolutely no historical support whatsoever that anything Ribera wrote had any impact on any of the churches. He isn't quoted by Darby, Larkin, Scofield, Morgan. Nobody ever heard of the guy until this century.

    Another anachronism that shows your ignorance. Ribera wrote his commentary in the late 1500s. The JWs, Mormons, and 7DA did not arrive until the 1800s. Your accusation is about 300 years off.

    Apparently, Ribera wasn't very good at his "misdirection" because as stated above, there's no evidence that anybody was influenced by what he wrote, and his commentary isn't quoted by anyone who published any major volumes on Revelation or prophecy in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, or 20th century.

    There is nil an ounce of futurism in Ribera's commentary. The closest Ribera gets is his view on an earthly kingdom which the RCC already believed it was the fulfillment of. Ribera merely reaffirmed what Augustine had already written about the Catholic church. That's why you never see anyone quoting from it because it was a rumor started by Dave MacPherson. Funny thing about this accusation is that the 7th Day Adventists also believe that Ribera founded futurism, so I guess you agree with the 7DA's.

    It is downright hilarious how critics of the rapture make the leap between a commentary that Ribera wrote on Revelation, to him inventing a doctrine called futurism. The fact that Augustine once believed in "chiliasm" which is part of a FUTURIST view of prophecy, and then he rejected it for amillenialism shows that not only did Augustine learn it from other sources, but proves that Futurism existed long before Ribera wrote his commentary in the 1500s. Regardless of what other views early church had about "chiliasm" the argument you and others erroneously assert is that futurism was an invention of a Jesuit Priest which is patently false.

    Other early church leaders that held to futurist interpretations of the Bible:

    I could list several more of first century church leaders, but I want to get all this in one comment without crashing the servers. The accusation that futurism and pre-trib/pre-mill is/was invented in the late 1500s and beyond is about as true as a Rabbi eating pork at the Pope's wedding.
     
    #73 DrJamesAch, Jun 24, 2013
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  14. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    Was that so hard? Don't break a nail.
    Rome did not use exile as a form of punishment against CHRISTIANS. They killed them. Even in John's case, they tried to boil him first, and THEN exiled him. He was exiled under Domitian. Historical fact. And Domitian did not reign until 81 AD. Ovid was a ROMAN poet.



    Notice something in your attempt to refute my statement about Smyrna? What's the main ingredient missing from your verses? ....drum roll......SMYRNA:laugh::laugh: (budump tshhhhhhh-cymbal crash)
     
  15. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    Clearly you intentionally "misread" my post. I'm not interested in correcting you. G'night.
     
  16. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You are saying something different now. Earlier you wrote:
    How can anyone take you seriously if you don't even take your own previous statements seriously?

    Oh please. Get out a Bible atlas and look up those areas. Does it have to be literally stated that there was a church in Smyrna for you to believe it?

    You know, I am not going to waste my time writing to you. Respectful conversation is a two-way street. Some of the topics you raised in your links are worth pursuing, and I am willing to discuss them.

    But not with you. I can't take you seriously.
     
  17. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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  18. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    #78 DrJamesAch, Jun 25, 2013
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  19. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, it's called Preterism and is very popular among Arminians.

    The most prominent Preterist I know of is Hank Hannegraaf.
     
  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Wow. Three big mistakes in two short sentences.

    1.Belief in a rapture happening at AD 70 does not equate to Preterism. I am a Preterist, but I do not believe in a rapture. Not as it is presented in much of modern Christianity.

    2. Hank Hannegraaf might be partial Preterist. There is a considerable difference between partial and full Preterism, which is what I am. (Although the term "full" is not the best term.)

    3. Preterism is not really overwhelmingly popular anywhere, but it is growing. Moreover adherents to Preterism come from a wide variety of backgrounds, certainly including Arminians and Calvinists.
     
    #80 asterisktom, Jun 25, 2013
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